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I have a little box for my TV running Android. The issue with all the apps is that 90% (looking mostly at games, I guess) of them more or less expect gestural i

I have a little box for my TV running Android. The issue with all the apps is that 90% (looking mostly at games, I guess) of them more or less expect gestural input, and are either really difficult to play or just not fun with a mouse. I doubt that particular issue is as bad in productivity apps etc., but there's a lot more to running a mobile app on a big screen than just resizing a window. Does this have some magic to solve that in a general way?

dharma1 11y ago
It's really up to app developers to make sure their apps work ok (provide fallbacks if gesture heavy) for mouse. I think we are in a period where Android is just starting to get used with mouse so I'd expect it to take a bit of time for things get in shape for mouse users. Some apps work better than others
- matt_morgan 11y ago
  Understood who should really address the problem, but if RemixOS doesn't have an interim solution we might see the same catch-22 here as we often do. App developers will care about these things when it matters commercially, and consumers will care about them when the apps work.
  - dharma1 11y ago
    It'll be a thing soon (1-3 years from now) once Google integrates Android with ChromeOS. Personally I find a lot of Android apps already very usable with mouse, YMMV
- petecox 11y ago
  Mouse support in the OS has been there a while, a friend had one of the early Asus Transformers some 4 years ago with a trackpad.
  - matt_morgan 11y ago
    I can use the mouse on my android box ... the issue is that the things you have to click don't make sense with a mouse. E.g., there'll be two buttons, one on each side of the screen. Easy to hit with two thumbs, impossible to hit with a mouse.
Zenst 11y ago
Would a trackpad that does the touch/gesture input not address and resolve all these set-top-box style arrangements?
fps 11y ago
Lots of android games play well with a bluetooth or USB controller instead of a mouse. You can easily hook an XBox or PS4 controller to a PC.
- dharma1 11y ago
  Yep! I've got an NVidia Shield TV running Android TV and I'm pretty happy with it. Great hardware (super fast mobile GPU) and the software isn't bad either. The included gamepad works great, additionally I bought a Logitech K400 wireless keyboard/trackpad to use some apps which aren't great on the gamepad (Chrome etc)
cmrdporcupine 11y ago
Android TV (like on my NVIDIA Shield box) is far better than any stock android. The apps are designed to be used with a controller or remote. And they work well. It is now my primary media device. The games aren't PS4 quality, but they run in 4K and everything is smooth. We use it for everything, and it's _mostly_ a good experience.
- nailer 11y ago
  > The games aren't PS4 quality, but they run in 4K and everything is smooth. Could you elaborate? Interested in 4K gaming without the expense of a rig. If the graphics are better, what's worse?
  - cmrdporcupine 11y ago
    Well, they're Android games. Mostly cheaper games ported from mobile devices. And the CPU/GPU in the machine isn't as hefty as what's in consoles; framerates and pixel quality is good but shading, etc. not. And the big publishers aren't making big games for it. There's nothing like a Skyrim or whatever for it. There's no DVD/BD disc reader in it, so everything has to be download only, so there'd be problems distributing games of that size anyways. The best games to show off 4K are vector games like Geometry Wars, etc. They look great and are snappy and fun. It's also pretty good for emulators, once you get all your ROMs on and get the controller mapped correctly. I've even got Dolphin running a few Gamecube games at mostly acceptable quality, tho not consistently.
    - nailer 11y ago
      Ah I see. Have you used 'GeForce Now'? It's actual PC games like Witcher III from beefy GPUs in the cloud: https://shield.nvidia.co.uk/games/geforce-now https://shield.nvidia.co.uk/games/geforce-now
      - cmrdporcupine 11y ago
        My Internet connection is a bandwidth capped 2.5Mbps 3g connection, as I live rural with no high speed terrestrial connection. So no, I haven't used it. I can barely do Netflix.
david-given 11y ago
I used to use Android on an old netbook --- a Toshiba AC100, ARM-based with 512MB of RAM. The netbook originally shipped with Gingerbread and was practically unusable, but after I upgraded it to Honeycomb it was a really rather comfortable thing to use. I had Debian running in a chroot on it, so I got a combination of the Android UI with a proper Linux environment underneath it. This meant that stuff like wifi and quick wakeup and sleep all worked fine, together with Android's lightweight web browser etc. But if I wanted it, apt and all the build tools were available. Unfortunately, since Honeycomb, each successive Android release has been steadily worse to use with a touch pad --- the Honeycomb status bar was great, the ICS action bar isn't. These days I use a Chromebook.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  Seems that Android may be heading back towards Honeycomb, given that the 6.0.1 release put the buttons in the screen corners (back and home bottom left, switcher bottom right). Never mind that 5.0 or something put in a notification shade that was more useful on larger screens. The biggest problem with Android right now is perhaps the release cadence, and that Google sticks to it even if it means shipping half baked functionality.
  - david-given 11y ago
    For my purposes, the current biggest problem with Android is that it's diverging more and more from desktop Linux; the security model is now sufficiently different that a Debian userland basically won't run. (selinux errors when doing anything with apt.) I used pchroot for a while, which was magical --- it fakes a superuser chroot in a normal user account --- but there's something about recent Androids it doesn't like and it's stopped working for me. The switch to a Chromebook was partly because of this. Crouton seems at least semi-blessed, although recent Chromebooks with Freon no longer support running X in a new VT. (You instead pass through X to a Chrome tab.)
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      Theodore Ts'o praised GNURoot the other day. https://plus.google.com/+TheodoreTso/posts/chfKCGTSz3m https://plus.google.com/+TheodoreTso/posts/chfKCGTSz3m
untog 11y ago
Hopefully they'll find a way to make something like RemixOS Android TV compatible - apps made for that respond to remote controllers rather than touch inputs. I have a little box running Windows under my TV, and RemixOS looks very interesting as a simpler OS I could use that will still have things like Netflix streaming etc. The only downside is that I need some background services (for DVR, etc) - I'm not clear on how Linux-y RemixOS is that this would or would not be possible.
Pxtl 11y ago
I keep wishing somebody would make an airmouse with buttons configured to simulate common touch-gestures - like put a d-pad on it for swipe up/down/left/right, and a scrollwheel simulating pinch zooms. Google keeps trying to get vendors to support their half-forgotten TV oses GoogleTV/AndroidTV, but it seems like it would be simpler to just make a peripheral that emulates the common touch actions and use let Android be Android, even if it's on a TV.
- tbrock 11y ago
  Or, you know, Apple's desktop trackpad which lets you do all these gestures.
  - Pxtl 11y ago
    Yes, but for a remote for a TV device you want something one-handed and hand-held, which creates an inherent problem with the pinch action. Trackpads are a desktop/laptop experience. Once you're using a trackpad, you may as well go with the Chromecast approach of using a full phone-like device. Sad that Android is so bloated, otherwise I'd think a small 3.5" barebones full Android device would be good as a bundled "remote".
    - codazoda 11y ago
      Have you seen the new Apple TV Remote? I haven't done a lot with it, but it's got a touch pad on it for gestures. Maybe these remote / trackpad devices would do the trick.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  Intel's Realsense perhaps?
- Yetanfou 11y ago
  You have a mobile phone, I assume? With a touchscreen? Which does multi-touch? And the thing sports a bluetooth adapter? In that case all you need is a program running on that phone, emulating you 'airmouse'. No need for more hardware, just use what you have. The same works for a 'normal' PC, btw. I know there are several apps for Android which can provide this service, I guess the same is true for the other contenders in this area.

dharma1 11y ago

It's really up to app developers to make sure their apps work ok (provide fallbacks if gesture heavy) for mouse. I think we are in a period where Android is just starting to get used with mouse so I'd expect it to take a bit of time for things get in shape for mouse users. Some apps work better than others

matt_morgan 11y ago
Understood who should really address the problem, but if RemixOS doesn't have an interim solution we might see the same catch-22 here as we often do. App developers will care about these things when it matters commercially, and consumers will care about them when the apps work.
- dharma1 11y ago
  It'll be a thing soon (1-3 years from now) once Google integrates Android with ChromeOS. Personally I find a lot of Android apps already very usable with mouse, YMMV
petecox 11y ago
Mouse support in the OS has been there a while, a friend had one of the early Asus Transformers some 4 years ago with a trackpad.
- matt_morgan 11y ago
  I can use the mouse on my android box ... the issue is that the things you have to click don't make sense with a mouse. E.g., there'll be two buttons, one on each side of the screen. Easy to hit with two thumbs, impossible to hit with a mouse.

Zenst 11y ago

Would a trackpad that does the touch/gesture input not address and resolve all these set-top-box style arrangements?

fps 11y ago

Lots of android games play well with a bluetooth or USB controller instead of a mouse. You can easily hook an XBox or PS4 controller to a PC.

dharma1 11y ago
Yep! I've got an NVidia Shield TV running Android TV and I'm pretty happy with it. Great hardware (super fast mobile GPU) and the software isn't bad either. The included gamepad works great, additionally I bought a Logitech K400 wireless keyboard/trackpad to use some apps which aren't great on the gamepad (Chrome etc)

cmrdporcupine 11y ago

Android TV (like on my NVIDIA Shield box) is far better than any stock android. The apps are designed to be used with a controller or remote. And they work well. It is now my primary media device. The games aren't PS4 quality, but they run in 4K and everything is smooth. We use it for everything, and it's _mostly_ a good experience.

nailer 11y ago
> The games aren't PS4 quality, but they run in 4K and everything is smooth. Could you elaborate? Interested in 4K gaming without the expense of a rig. If the graphics are better, what's worse?
- cmrdporcupine 11y ago
  Well, they're Android games. Mostly cheaper games ported from mobile devices. And the CPU/GPU in the machine isn't as hefty as what's in consoles; framerates and pixel quality is good but shading, etc. not. And the big publishers aren't making big games for it. There's nothing like a Skyrim or whatever for it. There's no DVD/BD disc reader in it, so everything has to be download only, so there'd be problems distributing games of that size anyways. The best games to show off 4K are vector games like Geometry Wars, etc. They look great and are snappy and fun. It's also pretty good for emulators, once you get all your ROMs on and get the controller mapped correctly. I've even got Dolphin running a few Gamecube games at mostly acceptable quality, tho not consistently.
  - nailer 11y ago
    Ah I see. Have you used 'GeForce Now'? It's actual PC games like Witcher III from beefy GPUs in the cloud: https://shield.nvidia.co.uk/games/geforce-now https://shield.nvidia.co.uk/games/geforce-now
    - cmrdporcupine 11y ago
      My Internet connection is a bandwidth capped 2.5Mbps 3g connection, as I live rural with no high speed terrestrial connection. So no, I haven't used it. I can barely do Netflix.

david-given 11y ago

I used to use Android on an old netbook --- a Toshiba AC100, ARM-based with 512MB of RAM. The netbook originally shipped with Gingerbread and was practically unusable, but after I upgraded it to Honeycomb it was a really rather comfortable thing to use. I had Debian running in a chroot on it, so I got a combination of the Android UI with a proper Linux environment underneath it. This meant that stuff like wifi and quick wakeup and sleep all worked fine, together with Android's lightweight web browser etc. But if I wanted it, apt and all the build tools were available. Unfortunately, since Honeycomb, each successive Android release has been steadily worse to use with a touch pad --- the Honeycomb status bar was great, the ICS action bar isn't. These days I use a Chromebook.

digi_owl 11y ago
Seems that Android may be heading back towards Honeycomb, given that the 6.0.1 release put the buttons in the screen corners (back and home bottom left, switcher bottom right). Never mind that 5.0 or something put in a notification shade that was more useful on larger screens. The biggest problem with Android right now is perhaps the release cadence, and that Google sticks to it even if it means shipping half baked functionality.
- david-given 11y ago
  For my purposes, the current biggest problem with Android is that it's diverging more and more from desktop Linux; the security model is now sufficiently different that a Debian userland basically won't run. (selinux errors when doing anything with apt.) I used pchroot for a while, which was magical --- it fakes a superuser chroot in a normal user account --- but there's something about recent Androids it doesn't like and it's stopped working for me. The switch to a Chromebook was partly because of this. Crouton seems at least semi-blessed, although recent Chromebooks with Freon no longer support running X in a new VT. (You instead pass through X to a Chrome tab.)
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    Theodore Ts'o praised GNURoot the other day. https://plus.google.com/+TheodoreTso/posts/chfKCGTSz3m https://plus.google.com/+TheodoreTso/posts/chfKCGTSz3m

untog 11y ago

Hopefully they'll find a way to make something like RemixOS Android TV compatible - apps made for that respond to remote controllers rather than touch inputs. I have a little box running Windows under my TV, and RemixOS looks very interesting as a simpler OS I could use that will still have things like Netflix streaming etc. The only downside is that I need some background services (for DVR, etc) - I'm not clear on how Linux-y RemixOS is that this would or would not be possible.

Pxtl 11y ago

I keep wishing somebody would make an airmouse with buttons configured to simulate common touch-gestures - like put a d-pad on it for swipe up/down/left/right, and a scrollwheel simulating pinch zooms. Google keeps trying to get vendors to support their half-forgotten TV oses GoogleTV/AndroidTV, but it seems like it would be simpler to just make a peripheral that emulates the common touch actions and use let Android be Android, even if it's on a TV.

tbrock 11y ago
Or, you know, Apple's desktop trackpad which lets you do all these gestures.
- Pxtl 11y ago
  Yes, but for a remote for a TV device you want something one-handed and hand-held, which creates an inherent problem with the pinch action. Trackpads are a desktop/laptop experience. Once you're using a trackpad, you may as well go with the Chromecast approach of using a full phone-like device. Sad that Android is so bloated, otherwise I'd think a small 3.5" barebones full Android device would be good as a bundled "remote".
  - codazoda 11y ago
    Have you seen the new Apple TV Remote? I haven't done a lot with it, but it's got a touch pad on it for gestures. Maybe these remote / trackpad devices would do the trick.
digi_owl 11y ago
Intel's Realsense perhaps?
Yetanfou 11y ago
You have a mobile phone, I assume? With a touchscreen? Which does multi-touch? And the thing sports a bluetooth adapter? In that case all you need is a program running on that phone, emulating you 'airmouse'. No need for more hardware, just use what you have. The same works for a 'normal' PC, btw. I know there are several apps for Android which can provide this service, I guess the same is true for the other contenders in this area.