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Car Insurers Find Tracking Devices Are a Tough Sell
- rmason 11y agoIf car insurers want to make them an easy sell try solving a harder problem than just small discounts. Register a car in the city of Detroit and your insurance rate goes up 200-300%. How about a device that you can activate from your cell phone that not only tracks your car but actually shuts it down? People would be creeped out by tracking but if you can save 70% on your insurance and at the same time more likely save your car from the chop shops it would be a win for everyone. Then have a private service that retrieves the cars so the police can work on more serious crimes.
- mark-r 11y agoLinks to articles behind a paywall are totally worthless.
- prodigal_erik 11y agoThe "web" link takes you to a search result page with links the paywall does not block.
- nyolfen 11y agogoogle the url for a working link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fcar-insurers-find-tracking-devices-are-a-tough-sell-1452476714&usg=AFQjCNH1TyN8I2HeKzqk8EOJYfig5Lns5w&sig2=dv5DgEzB7JFYrGF3ptlhow https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c... at least for now
- dang 11y agoThis question is settled on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989. Articles behind paywalls are ok as long as the paywall has a workaround. Comments helping people read an article are ok. Generic paywall complaints are off topic.
- mark-r 11y agoThe workaround wasn't obvious this time. My usual trick of coming in via Google didn't work for me, and I don't know why.
- klenwell 11y agoOnce interviewed with a company writing the web interface for users with these devices. Them: So as you can see here, we have a user in Florida who had 3 hard brakes and an excess speed reading in the past month. Me: Interesting. Them: Ooops. Clicked wrong button. She's going to have reset her password next time she logs in. Me: That was an actual user? Them: Yes, that's the live system. They told me they were popular with drivers looking for a discount with online insurers.
- jlgaddis 11y agoGood. I hope this idea dies quickly.
- guan 11y agoI wonder if one way to make better use of this data is to restrict what detail the insurance company can see. For example, you could imagine an arrangement where a third party vendor subject to strict controls gets the raw data and produces summarized scores, for example the frequency of hard brakes. Insurance companies would then only see these summaries, which could be challenged by customers, and can only vary premiums based on the summaries.
- TulliusCicero 11y agoSo basically the automobile equivalent of credit reports/scores?
- guan 11y agoWhen you apply for a loan in the US, most lenders these days will only look at your credit score(s), but they also have access to the full credit report and will sometimes have a credit analyst look at the report manually and form a judgment. So this would be like a scheme where the lender/insurer would only have access to scores, and not the full report.
- HiLo 11y ago"And here is the Apple Watch that tells us every time you smoke a cigarette, or think something shameful. Healthy mind healthy body."
- dsfyu404ed 11y agoThis article touched on the fact that additional information these sensors provide is interpreted in a traditional context. "Early company surveys of people’s interest in usage-based insurance revealed that about 40% of people had a viewpoint that was some variation on “No way in hell.” followed by "Progressive concluded Snapshot was overestimating the potential for accidents from midnight to 4 a.m. driving on week nights, and now considers late-night driving to be high-risk only on weekends." That's why people don't want to tell their insurance company anything more than the minimum. The insurance companies thought driving at night was risky and it wasn't until they had snapshot telling them that just because someone works 3rd shift isn't an inherently higher risk did they not pull their head out of their butt. So now, via snapshot they can offer competitive rates to people on 3rd shift whereas before they'd just have jacked the rates on the few that were unlucky enough to file a claim for something happening in the evening. Um, hooray?
- JeffreyKaine 11y agoSomeone should build an insurance company for Teslas. Build it as a Tesla app connected to the log data. No need for creepy trackers, they're already built in ;)
- kylec 11y agoHonestly, the tracking is the biggest thing that would stop me from getting a Tesla. Is it possible to completely sever the data connection for the car?
- joshmn 11y agoCould probably route it through a non-existent proxy.
- kylec 11y agoI was more thinking pulling a fuse or unplugging an antenna, but that could work too. Any idea how that would be accomplished?
- mirimir 11y agoTeslas connect via AT&T, so I doubt that one could add a proxy.
- TorKlingberg 11y agoFind the SIM card and take it out. They might have soldered it on though.
- mesozoic 11y agoSo you don't get critical updates and your car blows up.
- spdionis 11y ago
- CyberDildonics 11y agoSell my privacy for a tiny discount of giving away money and getting nothing in return? Sign me up.
- andylei 11y agoyou get a discount on insurance
- ekianjo 11y agountil they make it mandatory and then the discount will be as good as gone.
- dietrichepp 11y agoThe discount is partly there because tracking makes it cheaper for them to insure you, because they can estimate risk better. The better you are at estimating risk, the narrower your margins can be.
- trengrj 11y agoConsumers don't win however if they are judged as now higher risk (which should be approximately half of them).
- tamana 11y agoDo you want to pay for someone else to be a bad driver? Or should that person put down the beer and the phone?
- ekianjo 11y agoInsurances should be there to cover risks, and they work because you have sufficient base size to cover for the % of people who will have accidents. Once you start discriminating it destroys the purpose of having an insurance for everyone in the first place.
- vicparekh 11y agoI think these devices are awesome. They will lead to better drivers getting better rates. I can't wait to sign up.
- 542458 11y agoThere's a lot of pessimism ITT, but I'd like to say: As a new driver, I love these things. I started off with a multi-thousand insurance bill yearly, even with the cheapest insurance I could find. This is simply because I am young, male, and had to buy my own car - I don't think the insurance company was screwing me over, I'm just a high-risk demographic. However, I'm a fairly cautious driver - why should I have to pay for the indiscretions of other people in my demographic? I signed up for a UBI program and received a device that tracks * How long I drive over 120km/h * When I drive * How often I brake hard I don't consider this a huge breach of my privacy, and it has saved me over $5000 so far. If it required GPS my tune might change, but across 3 different insurance companies I've never seen a program like that. Maybe if I had the luxury of belonging to a low-risk demographic I would be more sensitive, but for people like me these programs are a godsend. (Full disclosure: I have not read the linked article due to paywall)
- easytiger 11y ago> If it required GPS my tune might change What are you talking about? Of course they do. They either use GPS or GSM or both to track your position and speed. How do you think it determines what speed you are doing? Magic? What brand of device do you have? It may be true that you have one of the only systems in the world doing this (e.g. Metromile) but it is not true for 99.9% of other people with trackers. The only reason it is cheaper is so they can gain customer base to justify their investment in the technology & infrastructure and hope for a legislative enforcement of the uptake of the devices.
- runin2k1 11y agoThey connect to the ODB port to monitor speed, and braking. From Progressive's site: What information does the device collect? The Snapshot device collects information about how you drive, how much you drive and when you drive. It also collects your vehicle identification number and triggers an email to you if it comes unplugged. Some devices collect location data: this is only for research and development purposes—we don't use it to calculate your rate.
- beachstartup 11y ago
- zubiaur 11y agoWhere I live car insurance is very comprehensive and one of biggest reasons why people insure their cars is as protection for theft. For the most popular cars, the ones at higher risk of being stolen, tracking is mandatory. All insurance companies require it, otherwise they won't insure your car. So, with the justification of a higher risk and by acting in a coordinated manner, peruvian insurance companies (4 which control the market) have effectively deployed a vast tracking network. Don't know if something similar could happen in the US, there are too many insurance companies as to easily establish common policies across the board and I suspect that it would be harder to come up with a credible justification for it.
- TwoBit 11y agoSo what's the car theft rate there? What about RF key validation?
- celticninja 11y agoThere are different types of tracker, the ones used for theft prevention / detection tend to be the type that are only activated once a theft is reported. The article is about active type ones that record all driving behaviour to assess your driving.
- avn2109 11y agoOnce the (very closed source) metrology hardware and transmitter are installed, you have no way of knowing if they decide to track you intermittently, constantly, or never. Can they remotely and silently activate the tracking system at arbitrary times? Probably yes. Can they push software updates over the air to drastically change the functionality of the tracking system? Also probably yes. At the risk of sounding like RMS, an insurance vehicle tracker is not your computer - it doesn't do as you tell it, and it is not on your side. Furthermore you have no idea what they do with the data downstream, particularly wrt giving it to the law and storing it in very insecure ways such that (other) malicious actors can get it. Unless you're the kind of person that believes in the truthfulness, good faith, and technical competence of insurance companies and the police, in which case I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell you.
- jonnathanson 11y agoAt the risk of sounding cynical: how long before the insurance providers lobby the government to make these trackers mandatory because they enforce "safety?"
- throwwit 11y agoI wonder if the data can already be sold from cellphone carriers.
- tabloid 11y agoThese devices would be easier to swallow if you could view the data that's being collected, knew how your score is being calculated, and had a chance to appeal errors/anomalies.
- sliverstorm 11y agoWhen I used one with Progressive I had the first two.
- nommm-nommm 11y agoYou can. I've used them from about three auto insurance companies. All of them had a web interface with exactly that. One you could set text or email alerts on certain events also.
- sambeau 11y ago"These devices would be easier to swallow" Don't give them ideas.
- Animats 11y agoFrom the article: "Smartphones have made Americans more comfortable with location tracking." "Privacy already has shifted from being a right to a good that is purchased." Right.
- richardw 11y agoI have one and don't mind at all. My insurance company is also my health-insurance provider and would know immediately if I have an accident, so they'd call me and if no answer would send help automatically. If my car is stolen, they can track it. They have a clause that prevents them from using the data against me in e.g. an accident claim. I get up to 50% of my fuel cost back monthly if I drive well and e.g. check my tire condition yearly (although linked to household insurance as well). I have friends with fast cars that wouldn't touch this and that's fine - keeps my premiums down because I'm not subsidizing their behavior. I'd rather have them tracking me than my Android device, say: https://www.google.com/maps/timeline https://www.google.com/maps/timeline
- SixSigma 11y agoIn the UK these are being pushed as a smartphone app
- gaius 11y agoTrue story, last night I was driving on the motorway, just cruising at about 60mph. "You are breaking the speed limit!" my GPS announced. She thought I was on a 30mph limit road that runs parallel for a bit, about 50ft to the left. Do I want my car snitching on me to the insurance company or the po-po? Not a chance I will ever risk getting a tracking device fitted.
- plorg 11y agoMy brother recently got one of these on his car, but he found he really didn't save anything by having it. Based simply on the amount of time driving during "peak hours", namely rush hour/when everyone is leaving work, he lost any discount he was pitched by the insurance company. This isn't really anything he has any control over. In that case he seems to be getting a snow job from an insurance company that is using the the idea of quantified self/living to seize a larger part of its customers' lives, likely without really paying them back anything for the intrusion.
- neogodless 11y agoSimilar to my own experience. For the first 6 months, I got a 10% discount just for having it. But immediately after that, the discount dropped to just 1% - regardless of how little I exceeded 80 mph (never) and how little I hard braked (once or twice a week at first, once or twice a month once I got a feel for where it detected braking) - it didn't matter. I was "grade A" for those categories, but C- for distance. Anything over 7500 miles per year basically removed any chance for a discount. Now that I live much closer to my job, I could probably qualify, but I also found a little stressful to always be worrying about maybe triggering the "hard braking."
- neogodless 11y agoHard-braking: A+ Speed: A+ Peak risk hours: A+ Distance: C- Because I drove over 7500 miles per year, I got the minimum discount (1%) - apparently experience decreases skill level ;) As soon as the initial 6 month 10% discount was reduced to 1%, I dropped the device.