14 ms·

Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

177 points by gabbo 11y ago

patrick_99 11y ago
It seems like the effect of the low dollar is already helping the tech sectors. Companies like Shopify make their money in USD while salaries are a bargain. American companies like Amazon are expanding their offices in Toronto and Vancouver. The brain drain is real though. I feel like there's a problem when police officers make more than most software engineers.
- turnip1979 11y ago
  Agreed on the brain drain. Toronto is a major (and expensive) world city. From talking with friends, 100K (Canadian, that's 70K US) is the ceiling for intermediate to senior developers. Junior devs make a lot less ... 50-60K (that's 35 to 42K US)! That said, free healthcare counts for a lot. Also, as a dev in a Canadian tech company, you are probably not going to see as much stress and volatility as your average Silicon Valley company. The high property prices are messing up lives of young people who don't have rich parents. In my friend circle, I can see it as a key source of strife among married couples. Buying a house ties you to a city .. even if you get a better offer some place else. I don't think real-estate is being recognized as the beast it is. The last Bank of Canada rate decrease seemed only about oil prices and oblivious to the flames in YVR and YYZ housing. Sigh ... what a mess :(
  - cmrdporcupine 11y ago
    Having worked in Toronto's tech scene for almost two decades I just have a big 'meh' response to it. I now work at Google in Kitchener, and commute from a hobby farm near Hamilton. Quality of life is outstanding. I dread ever having to work in Toronto proper again. The startup scene in Toronto is a clique. The quality of management talent is sad. After working as employee #4 in a Toronto startup, I jumped ship to work for a late stage startup HQ'd in NYC and the contrast in their management skills and treatment of employees was night and day. Working at a 'hip' company in Toronto they expect you to feel blessed and to take intense sacrifice on their behalf just because you have the privilege of working for something that isn't a bank or insurance company. Meanwhile compensation lags significantly behind what you'd get elsewhere in NA. And then the rest of the non-startup scene in Toronto is primarily large financial companies, and the work is soul crushingly boring.
    - cal5k 11y ago
      As a Toronto-based startup founder, I'm sorry you had that experience! (Shit, how Canadian of me... Apologizing for other people) In any event, I think for the first time there's a really good cohort of Toronto founders with American-style vision and ability to execute. I don't think we're too far from seeing a couple of unicorns in Toronto that will help to build a stronger ecosystem. And yes, where necessary that means importing American management at great expense. Toronto has a lot going for it. It's not everyone's cup of tea, as you can attest, but I think it's as good a place as anything to do something great.
      - cmrdporcupine 11y ago
        With the CAD being low there might be a window where a lot more American capital invests here. Until the price of oil climbs again. In general it seems like VC-funded companies that go through acquisition here get a far weaker deal than similar companies in the US. And the employees a lesser share of the pie. Maybe that's changing now, but unless the capital is there to invest, I can't see how.
        cal5k 11y ago
        It's improving. The capital is there, you just have to think globally fairly quickly. We can always whine about how things in Canada are never as good as in <x>, in this case the Valley, but overall it's actually pretty good. I guess the secret sauce is to just get on with doing what you'd do regardless of your circumstances. I personally am not motivated by whether or not I'd get a 30% boost on an eventual exit if we were in the US.
        cmrdporcupine 11y ago
        As an employee trying to pay off a mortgage and save for my kids uni, that 30% is important to _me_. So for recruiting good talent (not claiming I'm good talent, but whatever) I'd think it matters a lot.
      - mrtron 11y ago
  - 3pt14159 11y ago
    $100k CAD is not the ceiling. Far from it. I've personally extended offers for $120k, and that was for a pre-series A startup. The larger guys pay even more. First company that comes to mind, Shopify, pays up to $150k: https://angel.co/shopify/jobs/88003-software-developer?utm_source=profile_module_job_listing https://angel.co/shopify/jobs/88003-software-developer?utm_s... And it goes up from there, especially once you start looking at positions that include less sexy startups, less common technologies, or more responsibility (like being a team lead).
    - turnip1979 11y ago
      My data is from before Shopify's success ... I think you are right that Shopify might be helping to raise salaries (to be fair, their post says 70K to 150K). I'm curious .. the 120K offer, how experienced was the individual (in terms of years, etc.). Just saying, average house price in Toronto is 1 million. It should not cost 10x a dev's income to buy a house in Richmond Hill. In the Bay area, total comp of 400K is not unreasonable ... that makes the 2.5 million dollar homes in MV seem reasonable ... an uncomfortable 6.25x of a dev's income.
      - a-priori 11y ago
        Just putting this out there that I personally make >$120k as a developer in Ottawa, and I doubt I'm all that rare seeing as there's people at my company with a more senior job title than I have. I don't think Shopify being in town has anything to do with that, just that the ceiling is higher than you may think.
        stumac 11y ago
        you're not rare, but I don't think you're common. I make <$55k as a dev in Ottawa and it doesn't feel surprising.
        a-priori 11y ago
        I have no idea really, I only have my own experience to go by. But it sounds like you're really being underpaid. That's very low for a developer unless you're still in school or something. I know that I made $52k as a co-op student in 2009, for example, and I believe that was standard pay at the time.
  - Camillo 11y ago
    > That said, free healthcare counts for a lot. If you're young and childless, it really doesn't.
    - refurb 11y ago
      I was going to say the same thing. Most SV companies have very good benefit packages where the cost of healthcare is pretty minor compared to salary.
  - krooj 11y ago
    That salary ceiling is definitely one of the reasons I left for the states. Funny thing: that article goes to pains to point out that foreign investment into Canadian housing is a big issue, and I'm now watching the Toronto market, with the depressed exchange rate and looming recession, wondering whether I should turn around and buy property as an investment. There are tricky factors surrounding when and what to buy, but it could be sound over the long term, considering that the city is a seat of power for government, finance, and healthcare.
    - graeme 11y ago
      >wondering whether I should turn around and buy property as an investment Why would you do this? There's been nothing but talk about a housing bubble, especially in Vancouver and Toronto. This seems like the worst possible time to buy property there, especially if you take any debt to do it.
      - krooj 11y ago
        Buy after it bursts, when prices collapse.
        serge2k 11y ago
        Yeah, reading this just makes me think that now is when I should be saving up to buy in Vancouver and return home.
      - F_J_H 11y ago
        This has been the talk for many years now. I know people who have been waiting for the bubble to burst, and now have absolutely no chance of ever getting into the market.
        graeme 11y ago
        And if someone bought three years ago, and paid property tax, maintenance, interest on debt and all other fees, etc....what has their return been? I doubt it's very much, and they've got major downside risk.
  - ksenzee 11y ago
    > Free healthcare counts for a lot It's not really better than the inexpensive healthcare that comes with any good job in the US. If your choice is between $70K with free healthcare, and $120K with inexpensive healthcare, I know which I would pick.
plehoux 11y ago
"If the Canadian government is serious about long-term growth, it must focus on how it can build cities and policies that attract people and businesses. But we have not been headed in the right direction on this front." YES! I live in Quebec city and there is a rampant idea in the population that the status quo is the only way forward. More petroleum exploration, larger highways, big government mining investments/subsidies initiative like 'plan Nord', big fat houses in the suburbs that you can spin after 2 years for 20% gain... we never allow ourselves to think outside the box. I'm glad the US is 'embracing' successes like Space X, Tesla, Uber, AirBnb, ... to really show us what innovation looks like. You CANT innovate if your mind live in the status quo. With the $CAD drop and the rise of remote work we should also expect a massive brain drain... although it's anecdotal, my brother just accepted a job (remote from Quebec) for a US-based company at double the salary he would have got from a local one. That can't be good for locally-made innovation. Refs: http://www.petrolia-inc.com/en/corporate/projects/anticosti-project http://www.petrolia-inc.com/en/corporate/projects/anticosti-... http://plannord.gouv.qc.ca/en/ http://plannord.gouv.qc.ca/en/
- chm 11y ago
  Je ne crois pas que ce soit un problème isolé au Québec. Il me semble qu'après un certain âge, la plupart des gens réagissent moins bien au changement. Cela dit, je partage ton sentiment. Peut-être cette mentalité nous quittera-t-elle avec les Baby Boomers. Pour être plus positif: connais-tu le secteur aérospatial de Montréal? C'est une partie importante de l'économie qui est souvent méconnue (manifeste dans la réaction vis-à-vis l'aide d'un milliard de $ offerte à Bombardier). http://www.aeromontreal.ca/sector-aerospace/ http://www.aeromontreal.ca/sector-aerospace/
- nickspacek 11y ago
  Agreed with the harm to locally-made innovation. In my city (Fredericton, NB) the tech industry has hade (seemingly) more and more bigger companies (Raytheon, Siemens, Salesforce, IBM) setting up shop and bringing better wages. It's a double-edged sword. We have a pretty interesting startup scene, but those smaller companies (startups and consultants) are now finding it harder to compete with the salaries and benefits the large companies can offer.
S_A_P 11y ago
I was recently in Calgary. I found the people there friendly, polite and nice just like all the Canadian stereotypes suggest. I would love to live up in Canada, but HOLY HELL is it COLD! I couldnt deal with that. I was just in Calgary, I cant imagine Edmonton, Red Deer or the like. Is it just as cold on the east coast? I would imagine it has to be. Signed, Someone from Houston, Tx
- cmrdporcupine 11y ago
  Southern Ontario where the bulk of the Canadian population lives has basically the same climate as Chicago or Detroit. It is cold in the winter and blistering hot in the summer with a 170-ish day growing season. If you don't consider those places to be brutally cold you wouldn't consider it that way here. In fact the areas on the north shore of Lake Ontario have a milder climate (due to lake effect) than those of upstate NY to the south of us. I grew up in Alberta. It is cold and dry and has a short summer. I prefer the weather here even if the summers can be a bit too humid and hot for me.
  - rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
    Upstate NY here, and we get the worst weather in the US from Canadian winds and lake effect snow. For half the year it's always windy, always cold, always snowy, and always so, so gray. But aside from that it's a great place to live. Land is cheap, you can get good local food anywhere, and we're safe from nearly every natural disaster you can think of. Just bring a jacket.
    - cmrdporcupine 11y ago
      Seems like many Americans near the border have this perception as Canada being the 'source' of their cold weather. In reality the bulk of the nastiest storms here in Ontario come over the lakes from northern Michigan, which is, yes, north of us. Look on a map, most of the heavily populated areas of Canada are as far south as northern California. The parts that are north of the 49th are much less populated. Yes, periodically there is a nasty cold front coming down from Hudson's bay, but the prevailing winds and weather patterns are west to east. So most of our weather blows over from the midwest U.S. The really nasty awful cold weather last year for example, hit the U.S. midwest harder and nastier first.
cmrdporcupine 11y ago
We had a gov't for 10 years full of "Calgary-school" (Canada's right-wing ultra free market economic ideologues coming out of the University of Calgary econ/poli-sci program). They were overwhelmingly driven by an oil and gas agenda. From the gov't down to mutual fund investors, everyone was treating our economy like a one-trick pony, all oil and gas. If you listened to people talk, Alberta's oil sector was supporting the whole economy. Snarky message board comments from people from out west (where I'm from originally, BTW) making comments about Ontario being a "have-not" province being propped up by the superior entrepreneurial hard-working western oil sector. Meanwhile through all of this as a % of GDP, exports in manufacturing were _still_ triple those of oil and gas. Ontario's beleaguered auto-sector was still the primary export in the country. Followed by agriculture and other sectors. I said it at the time, and now it is obvious. They were lying through ideological teeth, and telling a story to the country about resource driven prosperity which was factually incorrect. And it has led to our country as a whole inheriting many of the problems Alberta as a province has been plagued with for decades: highly cyclical, with a political culture verging on corrupt, and environmentally dirty dirty dirty. And I'm afraid the new gov't is only half-heartedly interested in remedying any of this. Ontario and Quebec could be the "Germany of North America"; the deliberate assassination of our manufacturing and engineering sectors by everyone from federal gov't officials to fund managers has been disgusting. We have a heavy infrastructure debt, are saddled by decades of ideologically-driven mismanagement, and an ineptitude at actually getting anything done.
- wmil 11y ago
  > Ontario being a "have-not" province That's because Ontario's government managed to drive out most industry with an energy policy that created high and unstable electricity prices. As a result Ontario became a receiver of federal equalization payments for the first time ever. That's what the jokes were about.
  - cmrdporcupine 11y ago
    That's a good story that the Fraser institute made a lot of noise about, and made a great headline but in reality Ontario was still contributing more in tax revenues and EI contributions than it got in equalization payments: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/03/30/money_still_flows_out_of_havenot_ontario.html http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/03/30/money_s...
HorizonXP 11y ago
I've been saying this to my circle of friends and family for years. The stark contrast between Toronto and Silicon Valley is mind-numbing. And the short-sightedness of our politicians and society is infuriating. I cannot understand why people think it's ok to rely on banks, resource companies, and manufacturing to hold up our economy. We need to invest in growth sectors. It may not create a ton of jobs immediately, but the potential payoff could save us. If you're not growing, you're dying. I'm reaching the point where I need to hire developers soon. I'm worried about what kind of talent I'll be able to find, simply because most people worth their salt are already employed, or work in the Bay. Remote is an option of course, but it adds a lot of complexity that most early-stage startups can't manage well. I'm seriously considering going back to SV.
- seivan 11y ago
  I thought banks, resource companies and actual manufacturing were usually profitable. While most tech lived on VC money, at least when you look at the Bay Area. What am I missing here? Every time I read about this stuff I always get the impression that tech is this abstract thing that barely makes profit and lives on investments while "traditional" businesses lives on selling actual things that creates profit. Which is why I'm neurotically nervous over an impending tech crash when the dust settles and App Startup X, Y and Z will probably never be profitable with current tech salaries.
  - HorizonXP 11y ago
    All of those profitable companies were once unprofitable. They got their start from some sort of initial investment, whether it was investors, family, or just taking an existing profitable business and morphing it. Most startups in the tech sector are exactly as you describe. And that's the point. Eventually, one of those startups finds something that can turn a profit. They build something that people want and are able to push on a few levers and ramp up profitability. Apple, Google, Facebook, and many more, started out as small startups that barely made profit and lived on investments. Eventually, they got their shit together and became some of the world's largest companies. However, most startups that existed at the same time as them, heck, may have even had similar ideas as them, crashed and burned. That's the nature of venture capital. Throw a bunch of money at a bunch of ideas and see what sticks. And if you think that's a very haphazard way of investing, you're right, it is. But as a percentage of total investments made by many funds, VC funding is a very minor portion, so they can somewhat afford to make these bets (and lose).
prolepunk 11y ago
Boo-hoo. Same newspaper that endorsed Conservatives, whose economic policies for the past decade was to put oil sands above everything else, the government under which we saw Canada withdrawing from Kyoto and generally have terrible environmental record, is now having seconds thoughts when oil tanked as well as other commodities tanked dragging loonie with it. Boo-hoo, sir, boo-hoo. Refs: their endorsement -- http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/editorials/the-tories-deserve-another-mandate-stephen-harper-doesnt/article26842506/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/editorials/the-t...
- cmrdporcupine 11y ago
  The Canadian bourgeoisie (yes I'm using that word) has a deep split in orientation -- resource extraction Calgary school vs a more established Bay st money, "Laurentian elite." With the collapse of oil price, the strength of the former has waned in favour of the latter, hence the Liberal party has hegemony instead of the Reform. The Globe has for the last 15 years at least been schizophrenic about which of these two camps it supports. Its editorial board is a little different from the rest of the content in the paper.
3pt14159 11y ago
Canada didn't forget anything. We have a diverse economy with common sense measures like reducing our net debt to GDP, while keeping a fully funded retirement pension fund (CPP, unlike SS, actually invests in the public market). Even the way we do provincial transfer payments is sane. While one industry is booming (Oil, manufacturing, tech) other "have not" provinces get payments through the federal government. This brings a measure of stability to the system. No rational economist can look at the situation in Canada and say that "Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie" it's a ridiculous statement. Criticizing Canada's action on climate change is warranted, but our federal economic policy has been quite level headed.
- cmrdporcupine 11y ago
  Look at the allocation of value on the stock market. Overwhelmingly oil and gas despite that being a rather small part of the economy. Look at the allocation of most mutual funds that a Canadian owns as part of their retirement portfolio. Look at the nature of the previous gov'ts budgetary and economic planning (in as much as they did that kind of thing). Overwhelmingly in favour of the resource sector.
  - 3pt14159 11y ago
    That's because all of our non-resource companies are either: 1. American / international subsidiaries. 2. Mid-sized CCPCs. 3. Owned by private equity firms. I agree that Canadians do not allocate their retirement savings correctly and that our stock market is not a reflection of our economy, but our government has common sense measures to support a variety of industries.
    - cmrdporcupine 11y ago
      The gov't was giving preferential tax treatment to resource extraction and deliberately dismantling the regulatory environment around them. Basically extending what the Alberta provincial gov't has done for decades out to the rest of the country. A high dollar also favoured those industries against all others. Not sure if the feds could have done anything about the high dollar, but it certainly choked everywhere outside of the resource sector. A low dollar combined with high investment in education makes Canada a good place to invest to get high skilled talent cheaper. Many American tech companies did this around 15 years ago, I worked for a couple -- marketing/sales HQ'd in the US, engineering talent in the GTA.
guiomie 11y ago
The scary part in my opinion is: "Housing is the only thing keeping the Canadian economy afloat." This more an anecdote than an argument, but I know quite a few people who can barely pay their mortgage or have crazy margin debt (with mortgage) in Canada. I doubt their situation will get any better soon. There is this mentality around here that owning a house is a must or you are some kind of loser.
- seanmccann 11y ago
  The way that housing is keeping the Canadian economy afloat is that homes have appreciated a tremendous amount over the last 10 years. In Calgary it's over 2x in 10 years or 9% per year. In Edmonton and Calgary I can echo that there is a strong social influence in buying real estate. Owning a home is expected. With homes appreciating over 9%/year for 10 years, people assume that that will continue into the distant future.
graeme 11y ago
I run an online business in Canada (both products and services). I virtually never take Canadian clients now, since the exchange rate has shifted markedly, and Americans tend to view $100 USD the same as Canadians view $100 CAD. I know a few others with cross border operations and they're also shifting towards US markets. I noticed product sales to Canadians also dried up, as my products are now 40% more expensive.
tahssa 11y ago
It's more like Canada is sticking to the same old plans and is failing to adapt to a future where its economic cycles no longer work. Canada has what's known as Dutch disease. When the loonie is strong the natural resource sector booms since they get more value in return for selling these assets, however the services and manufacturing sector tend to fall off a cliff since labour cost become too high. Historically the Ontario govt has banked on this cycle. When the loonie rises and Ontario crashes then govt spending increases to compensate. When the loonie crashes and employment increases, tax revenue increases and then they payoff the debt from the crash. Ditto can be said for Alberta using the opposite scenario. The federal tax transfer system adds additional funding mechanics to level the playing field between provinces. That all said, everything has become very different. Oil has crashed due to external forces and the loonie has crashed too. That's fine, but I think govt is trying to figure out why the manufacturing services sectors are not gaining traction as they historical would (which is because other countries are now more equipped to compete within Canada and are still much cheaper... Example Mexico has taken all the auto manufacturing work). At the same time housing prices are 30 to 50% overpriced and the energy sectors nose dive is not a typical down cycle, it's a long term structural change. I'm probably wrong, but my spidey senses are telling me that Canada is going to go through a rough time and will continue to do so until the govt models these structural changes to compensate. If the Canadian govt jumps into a thoughtless spending spree (which is the current plan) using the old economic model then in 5 to 10 years Canadas outcome could be dire. [Edit: removed "Greece 2.0" as it highlighted aspects that could not compare to Canada's circumstances.]
- tahssa 11y ago
  Care to explain the downvote?
  - graeme 11y ago
    Might be the Greece 2.0 prediction. I was with you till there. Greece's debt was in Euros, which the Greek government didn't control. So Greece had no option to devalue it's currency in response to a slowing economy. Whereas Canada can devalue currency (as we're doing). We have the additional benefit that our debt load is in our domestic currency, so we don't face the debt appreciation challenge many countries face when they devalue their currency. I think Canada's in trouble, but the Greek situation is fundamentally a different type of problem. (I didn't downvote)
she_moves_on 11y ago
> No rational economist can look at the situation in Canada and say that "Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie" it's a ridiculous statement. Many "rational economists" have made that statement. Even the head of the Bank of Canada himself has suggested it is regrettable that our currency is so tied to oil. He can't openly criticize gov policy and so that's about as close as Poloz can get to condemnation. Classic hacker news comment. "I must disagree with whatever the post says and declare that no rational person could disagree with my criticism."
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  I love how disingenuous people often use the term "rational." Like anyone who disagrees must be some irrational loon and there's no room for debate here. Its sad that even on HN, such namecalling is convincing to many with the upvote button. Anytime I see commentary that include words "rational," "logical," or the term "man of science" I know I'm at least dealing with someone reductionist, pedantic, and usually extremist or marginalized.
  - she_moves_on 11y ago
    I couldn't agree with you more. The only thing I think a rational person probably wouldn't do is use the words "no rational person" so easily. (yes I know the contradiction I just made)
- dang 11y ago
  > Classic hacker news comment. "I must disagree with whatever the post says and declare that no rational person could disagree with my criticism." That is even more of a "classic hacker news comment", in the bad sense, than the one you're objecting to. I've noticed that generalizations about HN in arguments always degrade the quality of the discussion. The trouble is that community members (on all sides of any divide) tend to extrapolate whatever they notice and dislike into an image of the community as a whole, which then resembles the image of their adversaries. This is bad for the community, especially because we have no face-to-face contact to mitigate it. I don't mean to pick on your comment in particular. It's a pattern that comes up a lot when commenters diss the community. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10887769 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10887769 and marked it off-topic.
Tiktaalik 11y ago
I accept the premise that the government spent too much time and effort focused on the resource sector, but this article, like all I see on this subject, is extremely vague on what exactly the government should be doing to create a better environment for tech companies in Canada.
Almaviva 11y ago
I've seen enough agreement that I think it's worth pointing out. The dating market for men in Toronto is terrible, at least if you're not in the mainstream attractive subset: over 5'10, have all your hair, have easy social charm and confidence. I don't know exactly why this is but anecdotally women are extremely selective and have it ingrained deeply to never settle for anything (and they're not happy about not finding "good enough" men either). I can live with lower pay but after years of nothing but female rejection I'm really tempted to run to the US just for this reason. (Again, only anecdotally, but the way I'm treated by women in social settings is night vs day anywhere but Toronto.)
- beachstartup 11y ago
  you are feeling the same frustration many men in large cities feel these days. look around on the internet. all i can say is, don't expect different results if you keep doing the same things. it's on you to produce the outcomes you want in your life.
  - Almaviva 11y ago
    > look around on the internet. I know the places you're talking about, and I can't stand them because they're dehumanizing and hypocritical. But believe me I've looked, and in my experience a disproportionate number of these men are actually from Toronto! I'm not saying men don't feel like this elsewhere, but it was surprising to me how this city sticks out. http://www.returnofkings.com/58796/15-reasons-why-toronto-is-the-worst-city-in-north-america-for-men http://www.returnofkings.com/58796/15-reasons-why-toronto-is... (Edit: I don't endorse the above article, it's demeaning and ridiculous, but I'm using it as an example of how this city often comes up in "worst of" discussions.)
    - beachstartup 11y ago
      sounds like you should move. i'm sure you won't though.
      - 11y ago
dang 11y ago
Diversification of Canada's economy so that it isn't so dependent on commodities has been talked about for years, and successive governments have long been blamed for not doing it. That makes it worth asking whether governments have the power to do this in the first place. What examples are there of it having been done successfully?
gabbo 11y ago
It's crazy and upsetting to watch Canada squander the talent its great engineering schools produce, especially given the low cost. I left Toronto 8 years ago for the US but have close ties to home and keep regular tabs on the labour market. Even at 1:1 CAD:USD, before factoring in increased cost of living in Toronto (vs. where I am, which is not SF), I'm making close to double what I'd hope to fetch back home. If I really bust my ass and kill it where I am, the disparity is only going to grow. Once you account for other factors like the increased cost of everything and the general rarity of high-paying tech jobs, returning to Toronto feels like too much of a risk: even if I were to strike relative "gold" and make $120k-140k+ CAD as a senior engineer (a far cry from what I get how), what happens when I move on to something else? A close, highly-talented friend of mine has one of those jobs but feels trapped and doesn't even know where else he could go. I love that the Toronto startup scene is growing and maturing and I have friends who are really working to, but I fear what's going to happen when funding in the US begins to contract. SF, NYC, and Seattle all have profitable "anchor" employers which will continue to bid for talent even when startup funding won't sustain high tech salaries. Toronto has small branch offices of American companies and some banks (I'm skeptical about the latter). Is there much else? As far as I can tell there just isn't as much good work. I want to go home some day, but as someone who was fortunate enough to land a good tech job in the US: returning is a massive step down in pay for: fewer choices of work, a more fleeting labour market, a less ambitious environment, an expensive city with overpriced real estate, and a public transit/commute crisis which might not get materially better before I retire. I really do love the place though. tl;dr I'm an exceptionally fortunate Canadian spoiled by great career prospects in a major American tech hub and find it hard to justify returning home :(
- slededit 11y ago
  Inequality really works both ways. Canada is a much better place to be if you make under 60k/year. Its also a much better place to be if you fall on the work to live side of the coin. The flip side is you'll get less aggressiveness both at the corporate and employee level and the pay to match. I think its largely cultural. Theoretically Canada should be more welcoming to entrepreneurship. You don't have to worry about your health insurance when you quit and start your own company - and the safety net limits your fall in the case of failure. The government also heavily subsidizes new startups. But entrepreneurship is generally looked down upon in a way that isn't true in America. A failed startup in the US is chalked to "at least you tried" whereas in Canada its looked upon as a moral tale of the risks of chasing childish dreams. This goes throughout society - from raising capital to what your in-laws hassle you about over the dinner table.
sushirain 11y ago
The article mentioned brain drain, but more specifically, Canada let Hinton, Lecun, and Sutskever go... :)

177 points by gabbo 11y ago

It seems like the effect of the low dollar is already helping the tech sectors. Companies like Shopify make their money in USD while salaries are a bargain. American companies like Amazon are expanding their offices in Toronto and Vancouver. The brain drain is real though. I feel like there's a problem when police officers make more than most software engineers.

turnip1979 11y ago
Agreed on the brain drain. Toronto is a major (and expensive) world city. From talking with friends, 100K (Canadian, that's 70K US) is the ceiling for intermediate to senior developers. Junior devs make a lot less ... 50-60K (that's 35 to 42K US)! That said, free healthcare counts for a lot. Also, as a dev in a Canadian tech company, you are probably not going to see as much stress and volatility as your average Silicon Valley company. The high property prices are messing up lives of young people who don't have rich parents. In my friend circle, I can see it as a key source of strife among married couples. Buying a house ties you to a city .. even if you get a better offer some place else. I don't think real-estate is being recognized as the beast it is. The last Bank of Canada rate decrease seemed only about oil prices and oblivious to the flames in YVR and YYZ housing. Sigh ... what a mess :(
- cmrdporcupine 11y ago
  Having worked in Toronto's tech scene for almost two decades I just have a big 'meh' response to it. I now work at Google in Kitchener, and commute from a hobby farm near Hamilton. Quality of life is outstanding. I dread ever having to work in Toronto proper again. The startup scene in Toronto is a clique. The quality of management talent is sad. After working as employee #4 in a Toronto startup, I jumped ship to work for a late stage startup HQ'd in NYC and the contrast in their management skills and treatment of employees was night and day. Working at a 'hip' company in Toronto they expect you to feel blessed and to take intense sacrifice on their behalf just because you have the privilege of working for something that isn't a bank or insurance company. Meanwhile compensation lags significantly behind what you'd get elsewhere in NA. And then the rest of the non-startup scene in Toronto is primarily large financial companies, and the work is soul crushingly boring.
  - cal5k 11y ago
    As a Toronto-based startup founder, I'm sorry you had that experience! (Shit, how Canadian of me... Apologizing for other people) In any event, I think for the first time there's a really good cohort of Toronto founders with American-style vision and ability to execute. I don't think we're too far from seeing a couple of unicorns in Toronto that will help to build a stronger ecosystem. And yes, where necessary that means importing American management at great expense. Toronto has a lot going for it. It's not everyone's cup of tea, as you can attest, but I think it's as good a place as anything to do something great.
    - cmrdporcupine 11y ago
      With the CAD being low there might be a window where a lot more American capital invests here. Until the price of oil climbs again. In general it seems like VC-funded companies that go through acquisition here get a far weaker deal than similar companies in the US. And the employees a lesser share of the pie. Maybe that's changing now, but unless the capital is there to invest, I can't see how.
      - cal5k 11y ago
        It's improving. The capital is there, you just have to think globally fairly quickly. We can always whine about how things in Canada are never as good as in <x>, in this case the Valley, but overall it's actually pretty good. I guess the secret sauce is to just get on with doing what you'd do regardless of your circumstances. I personally am not motivated by whether or not I'd get a 30% boost on an eventual exit if we were in the US.
        cmrdporcupine 11y ago
        As an employee trying to pay off a mortgage and save for my kids uni, that 30% is important to _me_. So for recruiting good talent (not claiming I'm good talent, but whatever) I'd think it matters a lot.
    - mrtron 11y ago
- 3pt14159 11y ago
  $100k CAD is not the ceiling. Far from it. I've personally extended offers for $120k, and that was for a pre-series A startup. The larger guys pay even more. First company that comes to mind, Shopify, pays up to $150k: https://angel.co/shopify/jobs/88003-software-developer?utm_source=profile_module_job_listing https://angel.co/shopify/jobs/88003-software-developer?utm_s... And it goes up from there, especially once you start looking at positions that include less sexy startups, less common technologies, or more responsibility (like being a team lead).
  - turnip1979 11y ago
    My data is from before Shopify's success ... I think you are right that Shopify might be helping to raise salaries (to be fair, their post says 70K to 150K). I'm curious .. the 120K offer, how experienced was the individual (in terms of years, etc.). Just saying, average house price in Toronto is 1 million. It should not cost 10x a dev's income to buy a house in Richmond Hill. In the Bay area, total comp of 400K is not unreasonable ... that makes the 2.5 million dollar homes in MV seem reasonable ... an uncomfortable 6.25x of a dev's income.
    - a-priori 11y ago
      Just putting this out there that I personally make >$120k as a developer in Ottawa, and I doubt I'm all that rare seeing as there's people at my company with a more senior job title than I have. I don't think Shopify being in town has anything to do with that, just that the ceiling is higher than you may think.
      - stumac 11y ago
        you're not rare, but I don't think you're common. I make <$55k as a dev in Ottawa and it doesn't feel surprising.
        a-priori 11y ago
        I have no idea really, I only have my own experience to go by. But it sounds like you're really being underpaid. That's very low for a developer unless you're still in school or something. I know that I made $52k as a co-op student in 2009, for example, and I believe that was standard pay at the time.
- Camillo 11y ago
  > That said, free healthcare counts for a lot. If you're young and childless, it really doesn't.
  - refurb 11y ago
    I was going to say the same thing. Most SV companies have very good benefit packages where the cost of healthcare is pretty minor compared to salary.
- krooj 11y ago
  That salary ceiling is definitely one of the reasons I left for the states. Funny thing: that article goes to pains to point out that foreign investment into Canadian housing is a big issue, and I'm now watching the Toronto market, with the depressed exchange rate and looming recession, wondering whether I should turn around and buy property as an investment. There are tricky factors surrounding when and what to buy, but it could be sound over the long term, considering that the city is a seat of power for government, finance, and healthcare.
  - graeme 11y ago
    >wondering whether I should turn around and buy property as an investment Why would you do this? There's been nothing but talk about a housing bubble, especially in Vancouver and Toronto. This seems like the worst possible time to buy property there, especially if you take any debt to do it.
    - krooj 11y ago
      Buy after it bursts, when prices collapse.
      - serge2k 11y ago
        Yeah, reading this just makes me think that now is when I should be saving up to buy in Vancouver and return home.
    - F_J_H 11y ago
      This has been the talk for many years now. I know people who have been waiting for the bubble to burst, and now have absolutely no chance of ever getting into the market.
      - graeme 11y ago
        And if someone bought three years ago, and paid property tax, maintenance, interest on debt and all other fees, etc....what has their return been? I doubt it's very much, and they've got major downside risk.
- ksenzee 11y ago
  > Free healthcare counts for a lot It's not really better than the inexpensive healthcare that comes with any good job in the US. If your choice is between $70K with free healthcare, and $120K with inexpensive healthcare, I know which I would pick.

plehoux 11y ago

"If the Canadian government is serious about long-term growth, it must focus on how it can build cities and policies that attract people and businesses. But we have not been headed in the right direction on this front." YES! I live in Quebec city and there is a rampant idea in the population that the status quo is the only way forward. More petroleum exploration, larger highways, big government mining investments/subsidies initiative like 'plan Nord', big fat houses in the suburbs that you can spin after 2 years for 20% gain... we never allow ourselves to think outside the box. I'm glad the US is 'embracing' successes like Space X, Tesla, Uber, AirBnb, ... to really show us what innovation looks like. You CANT innovate if your mind live in the status quo. With the $CAD drop and the rise of remote work we should also expect a massive brain drain... although it's anecdotal, my brother just accepted a job (remote from Quebec) for a US-based company at double the salary he would have got from a local one. That can't be good for locally-made innovation. Refs: http://www.petrolia-inc.com/en/corporate/projects/anticosti-project http://www.petrolia-inc.com/en/corporate/projects/anticosti-... http://plannord.gouv.qc.ca/en/ http://plannord.gouv.qc.ca/en/

chm 11y ago
Je ne crois pas que ce soit un problème isolé au Québec. Il me semble qu'après un certain âge, la plupart des gens réagissent moins bien au changement. Cela dit, je partage ton sentiment. Peut-être cette mentalité nous quittera-t-elle avec les Baby Boomers. Pour être plus positif: connais-tu le secteur aérospatial de Montréal? C'est une partie importante de l'économie qui est souvent méconnue (manifeste dans la réaction vis-à-vis l'aide d'un milliard de $ offerte à Bombardier). http://www.aeromontreal.ca/sector-aerospace/ http://www.aeromontreal.ca/sector-aerospace/
nickspacek 11y ago
Agreed with the harm to locally-made innovation. In my city (Fredericton, NB) the tech industry has hade (seemingly) more and more bigger companies (Raytheon, Siemens, Salesforce, IBM) setting up shop and bringing better wages. It's a double-edged sword. We have a pretty interesting startup scene, but those smaller companies (startups and consultants) are now finding it harder to compete with the salaries and benefits the large companies can offer.

S_A_P 11y ago

I was recently in Calgary. I found the people there friendly, polite and nice just like all the Canadian stereotypes suggest. I would love to live up in Canada, but HOLY HELL is it COLD! I couldnt deal with that. I was just in Calgary, I cant imagine Edmonton, Red Deer or the like. Is it just as cold on the east coast? I would imagine it has to be. Signed, Someone from Houston, Tx

cmrdporcupine 11y ago
Southern Ontario where the bulk of the Canadian population lives has basically the same climate as Chicago or Detroit. It is cold in the winter and blistering hot in the summer with a 170-ish day growing season. If you don't consider those places to be brutally cold you wouldn't consider it that way here. In fact the areas on the north shore of Lake Ontario have a milder climate (due to lake effect) than those of upstate NY to the south of us. I grew up in Alberta. It is cold and dry and has a short summer. I prefer the weather here even if the summers can be a bit too humid and hot for me.
- rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
  Upstate NY here, and we get the worst weather in the US from Canadian winds and lake effect snow. For half the year it's always windy, always cold, always snowy, and always so, so gray. But aside from that it's a great place to live. Land is cheap, you can get good local food anywhere, and we're safe from nearly every natural disaster you can think of. Just bring a jacket.
  - cmrdporcupine 11y ago
    Seems like many Americans near the border have this perception as Canada being the 'source' of their cold weather. In reality the bulk of the nastiest storms here in Ontario come over the lakes from northern Michigan, which is, yes, north of us. Look on a map, most of the heavily populated areas of Canada are as far south as northern California. The parts that are north of the 49th are much less populated. Yes, periodically there is a nasty cold front coming down from Hudson's bay, but the prevailing winds and weather patterns are west to east. So most of our weather blows over from the midwest U.S. The really nasty awful cold weather last year for example, hit the U.S. midwest harder and nastier first.

cmrdporcupine 11y ago

We had a gov't for 10 years full of "Calgary-school" (Canada's right-wing ultra free market economic ideologues coming out of the University of Calgary econ/poli-sci program). They were overwhelmingly driven by an oil and gas agenda. From the gov't down to mutual fund investors, everyone was treating our economy like a one-trick pony, all oil and gas. If you listened to people talk, Alberta's oil sector was supporting the whole economy. Snarky message board comments from people from out west (where I'm from originally, BTW) making comments about Ontario being a "have-not" province being propped up by the superior entrepreneurial hard-working western oil sector. Meanwhile through all of this as a % of GDP, exports in manufacturing were _still_ triple those of oil and gas. Ontario's beleaguered auto-sector was still the primary export in the country. Followed by agriculture and other sectors. I said it at the time, and now it is obvious. They were lying through ideological teeth, and telling a story to the country about resource driven prosperity which was factually incorrect. And it has led to our country as a whole inheriting many of the problems Alberta as a province has been plagued with for decades: highly cyclical, with a political culture verging on corrupt, and environmentally dirty dirty dirty. And I'm afraid the new gov't is only half-heartedly interested in remedying any of this. Ontario and Quebec could be the "Germany of North America"; the deliberate assassination of our manufacturing and engineering sectors by everyone from federal gov't officials to fund managers has been disgusting. We have a heavy infrastructure debt, are saddled by decades of ideologically-driven mismanagement, and an ineptitude at actually getting anything done.

wmil 11y ago
> Ontario being a "have-not" province That's because Ontario's government managed to drive out most industry with an energy policy that created high and unstable electricity prices. As a result Ontario became a receiver of federal equalization payments for the first time ever. That's what the jokes were about.
- cmrdporcupine 11y ago
  That's a good story that the Fraser institute made a lot of noise about, and made a great headline but in reality Ontario was still contributing more in tax revenues and EI contributions than it got in equalization payments: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/03/30/money_still_flows_out_of_havenot_ontario.html http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/03/30/money_s...

HorizonXP 11y ago

I've been saying this to my circle of friends and family for years. The stark contrast between Toronto and Silicon Valley is mind-numbing. And the short-sightedness of our politicians and society is infuriating. I cannot understand why people think it's ok to rely on banks, resource companies, and manufacturing to hold up our economy. We need to invest in growth sectors. It may not create a ton of jobs immediately, but the potential payoff could save us. If you're not growing, you're dying. I'm reaching the point where I need to hire developers soon. I'm worried about what kind of talent I'll be able to find, simply because most people worth their salt are already employed, or work in the Bay. Remote is an option of course, but it adds a lot of complexity that most early-stage startups can't manage well. I'm seriously considering going back to SV.

seivan 11y ago
I thought banks, resource companies and actual manufacturing were usually profitable. While most tech lived on VC money, at least when you look at the Bay Area. What am I missing here? Every time I read about this stuff I always get the impression that tech is this abstract thing that barely makes profit and lives on investments while "traditional" businesses lives on selling actual things that creates profit. Which is why I'm neurotically nervous over an impending tech crash when the dust settles and App Startup X, Y and Z will probably never be profitable with current tech salaries.
- HorizonXP 11y ago
  All of those profitable companies were once unprofitable. They got their start from some sort of initial investment, whether it was investors, family, or just taking an existing profitable business and morphing it. Most startups in the tech sector are exactly as you describe. And that's the point. Eventually, one of those startups finds something that can turn a profit. They build something that people want and are able to push on a few levers and ramp up profitability. Apple, Google, Facebook, and many more, started out as small startups that barely made profit and lived on investments. Eventually, they got their shit together and became some of the world's largest companies. However, most startups that existed at the same time as them, heck, may have even had similar ideas as them, crashed and burned. That's the nature of venture capital. Throw a bunch of money at a bunch of ideas and see what sticks. And if you think that's a very haphazard way of investing, you're right, it is. But as a percentage of total investments made by many funds, VC funding is a very minor portion, so they can somewhat afford to make these bets (and lose).

prolepunk 11y ago

Boo-hoo. Same newspaper that endorsed Conservatives, whose economic policies for the past decade was to put oil sands above everything else, the government under which we saw Canada withdrawing from Kyoto and generally have terrible environmental record, is now having seconds thoughts when oil tanked as well as other commodities tanked dragging loonie with it. Boo-hoo, sir, boo-hoo. Refs: their endorsement -- http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/editorials/the-tories-deserve-another-mandate-stephen-harper-doesnt/article26842506/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/editorials/the-t...

cmrdporcupine 11y ago
The Canadian bourgeoisie (yes I'm using that word) has a deep split in orientation -- resource extraction Calgary school vs a more established Bay st money, "Laurentian elite." With the collapse of oil price, the strength of the former has waned in favour of the latter, hence the Liberal party has hegemony instead of the Reform. The Globe has for the last 15 years at least been schizophrenic about which of these two camps it supports. Its editorial board is a little different from the rest of the content in the paper.

3pt14159 11y ago

Canada didn't forget anything. We have a diverse economy with common sense measures like reducing our net debt to GDP, while keeping a fully funded retirement pension fund (CPP, unlike SS, actually invests in the public market). Even the way we do provincial transfer payments is sane. While one industry is booming (Oil, manufacturing, tech) other "have not" provinces get payments through the federal government. This brings a measure of stability to the system. No rational economist can look at the situation in Canada and say that "Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie" it's a ridiculous statement. Criticizing Canada's action on climate change is warranted, but our federal economic policy has been quite level headed.

cmrdporcupine 11y ago
Look at the allocation of value on the stock market. Overwhelmingly oil and gas despite that being a rather small part of the economy. Look at the allocation of most mutual funds that a Canadian owns as part of their retirement portfolio. Look at the nature of the previous gov'ts budgetary and economic planning (in as much as they did that kind of thing). Overwhelmingly in favour of the resource sector.
- 3pt14159 11y ago
  That's because all of our non-resource companies are either: 1. American / international subsidiaries. 2. Mid-sized CCPCs. 3. Owned by private equity firms. I agree that Canadians do not allocate their retirement savings correctly and that our stock market is not a reflection of our economy, but our government has common sense measures to support a variety of industries.
  - cmrdporcupine 11y ago
    The gov't was giving preferential tax treatment to resource extraction and deliberately dismantling the regulatory environment around them. Basically extending what the Alberta provincial gov't has done for decades out to the rest of the country. A high dollar also favoured those industries against all others. Not sure if the feds could have done anything about the high dollar, but it certainly choked everywhere outside of the resource sector. A low dollar combined with high investment in education makes Canada a good place to invest to get high skilled talent cheaper. Many American tech companies did this around 15 years ago, I worked for a couple -- marketing/sales HQ'd in the US, engineering talent in the GTA.

guiomie 11y ago

The scary part in my opinion is: "Housing is the only thing keeping the Canadian economy afloat." This more an anecdote than an argument, but I know quite a few people who can barely pay their mortgage or have crazy margin debt (with mortgage) in Canada. I doubt their situation will get any better soon. There is this mentality around here that owning a house is a must or you are some kind of loser.

seanmccann 11y ago
The way that housing is keeping the Canadian economy afloat is that homes have appreciated a tremendous amount over the last 10 years. In Calgary it's over 2x in 10 years or 9% per year. In Edmonton and Calgary I can echo that there is a strong social influence in buying real estate. Owning a home is expected. With homes appreciating over 9%/year for 10 years, people assume that that will continue into the distant future.

graeme 11y ago

I run an online business in Canada (both products and services). I virtually never take Canadian clients now, since the exchange rate has shifted markedly, and Americans tend to view $100 USD the same as Canadians view $100 CAD. I know a few others with cross border operations and they're also shifting towards US markets. I noticed product sales to Canadians also dried up, as my products are now 40% more expensive.

tahssa 11y ago

It's more like Canada is sticking to the same old plans and is failing to adapt to a future where its economic cycles no longer work. Canada has what's known as Dutch disease. When the loonie is strong the natural resource sector booms since they get more value in return for selling these assets, however the services and manufacturing sector tend to fall off a cliff since labour cost become too high. Historically the Ontario govt has banked on this cycle. When the loonie rises and Ontario crashes then govt spending increases to compensate. When the loonie crashes and employment increases, tax revenue increases and then they payoff the debt from the crash. Ditto can be said for Alberta using the opposite scenario. The federal tax transfer system adds additional funding mechanics to level the playing field between provinces. That all said, everything has become very different. Oil has crashed due to external forces and the loonie has crashed too. That's fine, but I think govt is trying to figure out why the manufacturing services sectors are not gaining traction as they historical would (which is because other countries are now more equipped to compete within Canada and are still much cheaper... Example Mexico has taken all the auto manufacturing work). At the same time housing prices are 30 to 50% overpriced and the energy sectors nose dive is not a typical down cycle, it's a long term structural change. I'm probably wrong, but my spidey senses are telling me that Canada is going to go through a rough time and will continue to do so until the govt models these structural changes to compensate. If the Canadian govt jumps into a thoughtless spending spree (which is the current plan) using the old economic model then in 5 to 10 years Canadas outcome could be dire. [Edit: removed "Greece 2.0" as it highlighted aspects that could not compare to Canada's circumstances.]

tahssa 11y ago
Care to explain the downvote?
- graeme 11y ago
  Might be the Greece 2.0 prediction. I was with you till there. Greece's debt was in Euros, which the Greek government didn't control. So Greece had no option to devalue it's currency in response to a slowing economy. Whereas Canada can devalue currency (as we're doing). We have the additional benefit that our debt load is in our domestic currency, so we don't face the debt appreciation challenge many countries face when they devalue their currency. I think Canada's in trouble, but the Greek situation is fundamentally a different type of problem. (I didn't downvote)

she_moves_on 11y ago

> No rational economist can look at the situation in Canada and say that "Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie" it's a ridiculous statement. Many "rational economists" have made that statement. Even the head of the Bank of Canada himself has suggested it is regrettable that our currency is so tied to oil. He can't openly criticize gov policy and so that's about as close as Poloz can get to condemnation. Classic hacker news comment. "I must disagree with whatever the post says and declare that no rational person could disagree with my criticism."

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
I love how disingenuous people often use the term "rational." Like anyone who disagrees must be some irrational loon and there's no room for debate here. Its sad that even on HN, such namecalling is convincing to many with the upvote button. Anytime I see commentary that include words "rational," "logical," or the term "man of science" I know I'm at least dealing with someone reductionist, pedantic, and usually extremist or marginalized.
- she_moves_on 11y ago
  I couldn't agree with you more. The only thing I think a rational person probably wouldn't do is use the words "no rational person" so easily. (yes I know the contradiction I just made)
dang 11y ago
> Classic hacker news comment. "I must disagree with whatever the post says and declare that no rational person could disagree with my criticism." That is even more of a "classic hacker news comment", in the bad sense, than the one you're objecting to. I've noticed that generalizations about HN in arguments always degrade the quality of the discussion. The trouble is that community members (on all sides of any divide) tend to extrapolate whatever they notice and dislike into an image of the community as a whole, which then resembles the image of their adversaries. This is bad for the community, especially because we have no face-to-face contact to mitigate it. I don't mean to pick on your comment in particular. It's a pattern that comes up a lot when commenters diss the community. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10887769 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10887769 and marked it off-topic.

Tiktaalik 11y ago

I accept the premise that the government spent too much time and effort focused on the resource sector, but this article, like all I see on this subject, is extremely vague on what exactly the government should be doing to create a better environment for tech companies in Canada.

Almaviva 11y ago

I've seen enough agreement that I think it's worth pointing out. The dating market for men in Toronto is terrible, at least if you're not in the mainstream attractive subset: over 5'10, have all your hair, have easy social charm and confidence. I don't know exactly why this is but anecdotally women are extremely selective and have it ingrained deeply to never settle for anything (and they're not happy about not finding "good enough" men either). I can live with lower pay but after years of nothing but female rejection I'm really tempted to run to the US just for this reason. (Again, only anecdotally, but the way I'm treated by women in social settings is night vs day anywhere but Toronto.)

beachstartup 11y ago
you are feeling the same frustration many men in large cities feel these days. look around on the internet. all i can say is, don't expect different results if you keep doing the same things. it's on you to produce the outcomes you want in your life.
- Almaviva 11y ago
  > look around on the internet. I know the places you're talking about, and I can't stand them because they're dehumanizing and hypocritical. But believe me I've looked, and in my experience a disproportionate number of these men are actually from Toronto! I'm not saying men don't feel like this elsewhere, but it was surprising to me how this city sticks out. http://www.returnofkings.com/58796/15-reasons-why-toronto-is-the-worst-city-in-north-america-for-men http://www.returnofkings.com/58796/15-reasons-why-toronto-is... (Edit: I don't endorse the above article, it's demeaning and ridiculous, but I'm using it as an example of how this city often comes up in "worst of" discussions.)
  - beachstartup 11y ago
    sounds like you should move. i'm sure you won't though.
    - 11y ago

dang 11y ago

Diversification of Canada's economy so that it isn't so dependent on commodities has been talked about for years, and successive governments have long been blamed for not doing it. That makes it worth asking whether governments have the power to do this in the first place. What examples are there of it having been done successfully?

gabbo 11y ago

It's crazy and upsetting to watch Canada squander the talent its great engineering schools produce, especially given the low cost. I left Toronto 8 years ago for the US but have close ties to home and keep regular tabs on the labour market. Even at 1:1 CAD:USD, before factoring in increased cost of living in Toronto (vs. where I am, which is not SF), I'm making close to double what I'd hope to fetch back home. If I really bust my ass and kill it where I am, the disparity is only going to grow. Once you account for other factors like the increased cost of everything and the general rarity of high-paying tech jobs, returning to Toronto feels like too much of a risk: even if I were to strike relative "gold" and make $120k-140k+ CAD as a senior engineer (a far cry from what I get how), what happens when I move on to something else? A close, highly-talented friend of mine has one of those jobs but feels trapped and doesn't even know where else he could go. I love that the Toronto startup scene is growing and maturing and I have friends who are really working to, but I fear what's going to happen when funding in the US begins to contract. SF, NYC, and Seattle all have profitable "anchor" employers which will continue to bid for talent even when startup funding won't sustain high tech salaries. Toronto has small branch offices of American companies and some banks (I'm skeptical about the latter). Is there much else? As far as I can tell there just isn't as much good work. I want to go home some day, but as someone who was fortunate enough to land a good tech job in the US: returning is a massive step down in pay for: fewer choices of work, a more fleeting labour market, a less ambitious environment, an expensive city with overpriced real estate, and a public transit/commute crisis which might not get materially better before I retire. I really do love the place though. tl;dr I'm an exceptionally fortunate Canadian spoiled by great career prospects in a major American tech hub and find it hard to justify returning home :(

slededit 11y ago
Inequality really works both ways. Canada is a much better place to be if you make under 60k/year. Its also a much better place to be if you fall on the work to live side of the coin. The flip side is you'll get less aggressiveness both at the corporate and employee level and the pay to match. I think its largely cultural. Theoretically Canada should be more welcoming to entrepreneurship. You don't have to worry about your health insurance when you quit and start your own company - and the safety net limits your fall in the case of failure. The government also heavily subsidizes new startups. But entrepreneurship is generally looked down upon in a way that isn't true in America. A failed startup in the US is chalked to "at least you tried" whereas in Canada its looked upon as a moral tale of the risks of chasing childish dreams. This goes throughout society - from raising capital to what your in-laws hassle you about over the dinner table.

sushirain 11y ago

The article mentioned brain drain, but more specifically, Canada let Hinton, Lecun, and Sutskever go... :)