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I agree in theory, but in practice a K12 student-facing Windows desktop is no more programmable than an iPad. You are locked down to a small subset of site-lic

I agree in theory, but in practice a K12 student-facing Windows desktop is no more programmable than an iPad. You are locked down to a small subset of site-licensed applications your domain administrator has deemed appropriate for the least common denominator in your age group. All forms of customization are disabled with Group Policy. Novell and Citrix application delivery are common, so you don't even have a Start menu but a proprietary launcher. Extremely aggressive Internet filtering bans large swaths of content about networking to prevent students from learning how to bypass the filter. Our IT department enabled access to the hilariously antiquated QBasic environment only for students currently enrolled in a programming course and revoked it the next semester. You had to sign a special waiver saying you promised to only write code directly in fulfillment of course requirements and not do any independent experimentation or goofing around. I get it, but K12 students on non-iPads aren't getting Linux, they're definitely not getting root, and they're probably not getting user-mode code execution either. You'd need to change the entire culture around K12 IT to make that happen. The best way for kids to learn to be hackers is on their hardware, free from school or parental controls.

snowwrestler 11y ago
I think iPads in education are really aimed at replacing textbooks, which in their paper form never gave students any authoring/hacking capability either. In this context, consumption is the correct way to think of what the iPad enables. But instead of thinking of it like a broken computer, folks can think of it like a lighter, more up-to-date, interactive textbook. In terms of evaluating Apple as a company, one has to look at their whole product line. iPads may be locked down, but Macs are great platforms for kids to tinker. They ship with a ton of programming languages and integrate with all sorts of free open source technologies. And I agree that personal hardware is the best place to hack. Decades ago, school computers were the only place to hack because school was the only place to actually put hands on a computer. Today computers (even Macs) are much more affordable, especially used.
- mhuffman 11y ago
  Also each book can be licensed and charged independently. No more sharing or copying knowledge for free for those filthy free-loading kids!
  - kolinko 11y ago
    On the other hand - free open source books! That's what the polish government do (or did try to do) - instead of paying licenses, they hired people to build free educational books.
    - dEnigma 11y ago
      That sound interesting in principle, but I wouldn't trust a book by the current Polish government. That being said, there are already a number of great open teaching materials available, e.g. http://openlogicproject.org/ http://openlogicproject.org/
oliyoung 11y ago
“The best way for kids to learn to be hackers is on their hardware, free from school or parental controls“ That's why I think the Raspberry Pi et al are so important, they're disposable yet fully capable pieces of hardware that kids can hack on.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  I don't think the Pi is as brilliant for education as it pretends to be. The Linux command line and the permissions system are incredibly unfriendly to adults, never mind kids. Have you tried to set up a web server with PHP on a Pi? It makes no concessions at all to beginners. You might as well be setting up Ubuntu Server LTS - only it doesn't give you any clues about security. I'd be more interested in something that updated the experience of the old 8-bit micros, which dropped you straight into a simplified programming environment, and gave you a path to bare-metal machine code if you wanted to take it. Maybe something like a Python IDE, with a way through to Linux for expert users, but with basic extras - a web server, a mail server, a VPS that could connect to other Pi users, a few other options - pre-installed and ready to go?
  - equalarrow 11y ago
    Bring back the old 8-bit (C=64, Apple][) machines? Seriously. I know all the above comments are valid - site license lockdowns, iPad 'unprogrammibility', etc - but there's something to be said for no permissions, no network, nothing where you can really make Something Bad(tm). There's something to be said for those old machines. Basic was a good learning intro and assembly is still valid today. I remember Logo too.. I'm just chomping at the bit when my kids are old enough to dust off the C-64 and start diving in.
  - jedahan 11y ago
    The pi installer NOOBS has an option that drops you right into a python interpreter on boot. The other default, raspbian, has a game programming environment on the desktop. Though hackernews usually just runs stories on the pi being used for 'smart mirrors' and emulation stations.
  - 11y ago
TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
QBASIC? Lucky! We had COMAL, essentially BASIC but with structured programming constructs. Sounds not bad, except the COMAL editor (for DOS) operated like a home computer from the 80s. You had to type in lines in multiples of ten, renumber and relist!

snowwrestler 11y ago

I think iPads in education are really aimed at replacing textbooks, which in their paper form never gave students any authoring/hacking capability either. In this context, consumption is the correct way to think of what the iPad enables. But instead of thinking of it like a broken computer, folks can think of it like a lighter, more up-to-date, interactive textbook. In terms of evaluating Apple as a company, one has to look at their whole product line. iPads may be locked down, but Macs are great platforms for kids to tinker. They ship with a ton of programming languages and integrate with all sorts of free open source technologies. And I agree that personal hardware is the best place to hack. Decades ago, school computers were the only place to hack because school was the only place to actually put hands on a computer. Today computers (even Macs) are much more affordable, especially used.

mhuffman 11y ago
Also each book can be licensed and charged independently. No more sharing or copying knowledge for free for those filthy free-loading kids!
- kolinko 11y ago
  On the other hand - free open source books! That's what the polish government do (or did try to do) - instead of paying licenses, they hired people to build free educational books.
  - dEnigma 11y ago
    That sound interesting in principle, but I wouldn't trust a book by the current Polish government. That being said, there are already a number of great open teaching materials available, e.g. http://openlogicproject.org/ http://openlogicproject.org/

oliyoung 11y ago

“The best way for kids to learn to be hackers is on their hardware, free from school or parental controls“ That's why I think the Raspberry Pi et al are so important, they're disposable yet fully capable pieces of hardware that kids can hack on.

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
I don't think the Pi is as brilliant for education as it pretends to be. The Linux command line and the permissions system are incredibly unfriendly to adults, never mind kids. Have you tried to set up a web server with PHP on a Pi? It makes no concessions at all to beginners. You might as well be setting up Ubuntu Server LTS - only it doesn't give you any clues about security. I'd be more interested in something that updated the experience of the old 8-bit micros, which dropped you straight into a simplified programming environment, and gave you a path to bare-metal machine code if you wanted to take it. Maybe something like a Python IDE, with a way through to Linux for expert users, but with basic extras - a web server, a mail server, a VPS that could connect to other Pi users, a few other options - pre-installed and ready to go?
- equalarrow 11y ago
  Bring back the old 8-bit (C=64, Apple][) machines? Seriously. I know all the above comments are valid - site license lockdowns, iPad 'unprogrammibility', etc - but there's something to be said for no permissions, no network, nothing where you can really make Something Bad(tm). There's something to be said for those old machines. Basic was a good learning intro and assembly is still valid today. I remember Logo too.. I'm just chomping at the bit when my kids are old enough to dust off the C-64 and start diving in.
- jedahan 11y ago
  The pi installer NOOBS has an option that drops you right into a python interpreter on boot. The other default, raspbian, has a game programming environment on the desktop. Though hackernews usually just runs stories on the pi being used for 'smart mirrors' and emulation stations.
- 11y ago

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago

QBASIC? Lucky! We had COMAL, essentially BASIC but with structured programming constructs. Sounds not bad, except the COMAL editor (for DOS) operated like a home computer from the 80s. You had to type in lines in multiples of ten, renumber and relist!