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An oldie but a goodie: Are You a Sharecropper? If you’re developing software for the Windows platform, yes. Or for the Apple platform, or the Oracle platform,

An oldie but a goodie: Are You a Sharecropper? If you’re developing software for the Windows platform, yes. Or for the Apple platform, or the Oracle platform, or the SAP platform, or, well, any platform that is owned and operated by a company. They own the ground you’re building on, and if they decide they don’t like you, or they can do something better with the ground, you’re toast. They can ship their own product and give it away till you go bust, then start charging for it; and use secret APIs you can’t see; and they can break the published APIs you use. All of these things have historically been done by platform vendors. https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/07/12/WebsThePlace https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/07/12/WebsThePl...

wvenable 11y ago
The issue that this application, for example, wouldn't exist at all if it couldn't rely on Google's services. (Unlike, say, most Facebook games). So the option is either build nothing or build something and risk it being taken away.
- ajross 11y ago
  What specifically does the OSM platform and related projects lack that it requires? I mean, yes: Google Maps is the premier consumer mapping service out there, but it's not like the market is completely unserved by free alternatives.
  - BinaryIdiot 11y ago
    The app was written a decade ago; likely there wasn't any available APIs the OP could have used (or he may not have been aware of them if they existed). Now he doesn't have time to transition to a new set of APIs. Yeah plenty of alternatives now but does it really matter in this situation? Not really in my opinion.
    - MatthewPhillips 11y ago
      So what's the issue here? Apps do not continue to exist in perpetuity without maintenance. If he can't afford the maintenance cost (understandable) then the app is going to eventually stop working anyways.
      - BinaryIdiot 11y ago
        > So what's the issue here OP wants a violation exception? Hardly seems like a worthwhile enough service though at least in my opinion. > Apps do not continue to exist in perpetuity without maintenance. If he can't afford the maintenance cost (understandable) then the app is going to eventually stop working anyways. Not really. If the API version he's using doesn't stop working there is no real reason why it couldn't just continue to work for a very long time (maybe even forever depending on how browsers evolve). It's not like software just randomly stops working forever after a certain period...well maybe in 2038 but in general simple applications (like this one) are not a big deal to keep up and running for seemingly forever.
        ajross 11y ago
        > If the API version he's using doesn't stop working there is no real reason why it couldn't just continue to work for a very long time That's sort of insane. We aren't talking about a static library here. Of all the public web APIs available in 2007, how many are still alive? Maybe 5%? Less? Google Maps is one of a tiny, tiny set of still-relevant products that still support their decade-old interface. And don't get me wrong: it's a great product. But getting back to the discussion, it's a proprietary product, and anything built on it needs to be aware of the inherent business risk if, some time over the next decade, the API provider decides to terminate support. They did.
        manigandham 11y ago
        Your comment didn't argue against anything the parent said. What exactly is "insane"?
        11y ago
oldmanjay 11y ago
it doesn't seem all that different from being an employee
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
BinaryIdiot 11y ago
Too bad that's a very outdated way of thinking. Today there is just no getting around "Sharecropping". If you want your app in front of actual people you're going to use a platform owned by Google, Apple, Microsoft or Blackberry. Sure the web is still a place where you're not really a "Sharecropper" but compared to native solutions the web doesn't give you everything you need for a fully integrated and awesome user experience. As much as I'd love for this to not be true it is and there isn't a way around it. Even if you used an abstraction so you never technically write code specific to Apple, Google, etc in the end it's still going to be deployed to their platforms via their stores. Unless, of course, your market is strictly the tiny niche of jailbreaks / manual installers of software.
- jclulow 11y ago
  It is not outdated, but _prescient_. Any third party (company, or otherwise) that you depend on for your business can elect to make your life more difficult (or nigh on impossible) at any time. You may choose to depend on a vendor to an extent, but structure your application in a way that a sudden change in the rules would not be the end of you; e.g., there is more than one cloud provider on which one can use the same Docker images to deploy an application. And you may choose a business where there are no options _other_ than to depend on a third party; e.g., you wish to sell a native iOS application to iPhone users. Risk is still risk: a potential pitfall or peril. Sometimes the risk is great enough, compared with the potential return, that the only way to win is not to play. Regardless, this article discusses a set of risks which exist now more then ever; to enumerate and understand these risks is not outdated thinking, it's just good business.
  - PhantomGremlin 11y ago
    Any third party (company, or otherwise) that you depend on for your business can elect to make your life more difficult (or nigh on impossible) at any time. This applies to so many things involving computers, and of course most aspects of modern life. Back in the good (bad?) old days there were no such things as "personal" computers. We created our programs on punched cards and trudged down to the computer center to run them. And that, to me, was what I hated the most about the computers of the time. I was dependent on the good graces of the University to get a few precious minutes of computer time to use to run my programs. So, when the first usable PCs were invented, people flocked to them. 8K bytes of RAM meant you could run a BASIC interpreter on your own computer. Once you bought it, you could use it as much as you wanted to, for any reason that you wanted to. Period. It's unfortunate that so much of modern computer life once again depends on the good graces of others.
brudgers 11y ago
How does sharecropping sound compared to working for free on an opensource project controlled by a large corporation?
- microcolonel 11y ago
  How exactly would an open source project be controlled by a large corporation? The furthest they could go is a CLA, and even that wouldn't prevent forking.
  - brudgers 11y ago
    Imagine Android, but with Google using its position to set the direction based on its business interests instead of in full collaboration with the open source community.
    - ocdtrekkie 11y ago
      That's exactly what Google does... In fact, they don't even develop publicly. They push new releases out to open source after a big fanfare announcement of everything they developed behind closed doors. Hardly open source, and primarily directed by Google's business interests.
  - rifung 11y ago
    They could be controlled in the sense that they control what patches go into the code base like with Android. Sure, you can always fork the project and make your own, but I'd argue the project is controlled by the corporation.
cft 11y ago
Does this apply to Android App development? This is scary.
- ocdtrekkie 11y ago
  Android developers (iOS developers too) are randomly and arbitrarily purged from the Play Store (and Apple App Store, respectively) with reckless abandon. Even though sideloading is a thing on Android, if Google bans you, you're basically put out of business. There are literally dozens of these cases you can find on the Internet. Google often does this with no warning, and no real process for appeal unless an Android blog like Android Police decides to write an article about it. Bad press is basically the only way to appeal.

wvenable 11y ago

The issue that this application, for example, wouldn't exist at all if it couldn't rely on Google's services. (Unlike, say, most Facebook games). So the option is either build nothing or build something and risk it being taken away.

ajross 11y ago
What specifically does the OSM platform and related projects lack that it requires? I mean, yes: Google Maps is the premier consumer mapping service out there, but it's not like the market is completely unserved by free alternatives.
- BinaryIdiot 11y ago
  The app was written a decade ago; likely there wasn't any available APIs the OP could have used (or he may not have been aware of them if they existed). Now he doesn't have time to transition to a new set of APIs. Yeah plenty of alternatives now but does it really matter in this situation? Not really in my opinion.
  - MatthewPhillips 11y ago
    So what's the issue here? Apps do not continue to exist in perpetuity without maintenance. If he can't afford the maintenance cost (understandable) then the app is going to eventually stop working anyways.
    - BinaryIdiot 11y ago
      > So what's the issue here OP wants a violation exception? Hardly seems like a worthwhile enough service though at least in my opinion. > Apps do not continue to exist in perpetuity without maintenance. If he can't afford the maintenance cost (understandable) then the app is going to eventually stop working anyways. Not really. If the API version he's using doesn't stop working there is no real reason why it couldn't just continue to work for a very long time (maybe even forever depending on how browsers evolve). It's not like software just randomly stops working forever after a certain period...well maybe in 2038 but in general simple applications (like this one) are not a big deal to keep up and running for seemingly forever.
      - ajross 11y ago
        > If the API version he's using doesn't stop working there is no real reason why it couldn't just continue to work for a very long time That's sort of insane. We aren't talking about a static library here. Of all the public web APIs available in 2007, how many are still alive? Maybe 5%? Less? Google Maps is one of a tiny, tiny set of still-relevant products that still support their decade-old interface. And don't get me wrong: it's a great product. But getting back to the discussion, it's a proprietary product, and anything built on it needs to be aware of the inherent business risk if, some time over the next decade, the API provider decides to terminate support. They did.
        manigandham 11y ago
        Your comment didn't argue against anything the parent said. What exactly is "insane"?
        11y ago

oldmanjay 11y ago

it doesn't seem all that different from being an employee

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

BinaryIdiot 11y ago

Too bad that's a very outdated way of thinking. Today there is just no getting around "Sharecropping". If you want your app in front of actual people you're going to use a platform owned by Google, Apple, Microsoft or Blackberry. Sure the web is still a place where you're not really a "Sharecropper" but compared to native solutions the web doesn't give you everything you need for a fully integrated and awesome user experience. As much as I'd love for this to not be true it is and there isn't a way around it. Even if you used an abstraction so you never technically write code specific to Apple, Google, etc in the end it's still going to be deployed to their platforms via their stores. Unless, of course, your market is strictly the tiny niche of jailbreaks / manual installers of software.

jclulow 11y ago
It is not outdated, but _prescient_. Any third party (company, or otherwise) that you depend on for your business can elect to make your life more difficult (or nigh on impossible) at any time. You may choose to depend on a vendor to an extent, but structure your application in a way that a sudden change in the rules would not be the end of you; e.g., there is more than one cloud provider on which one can use the same Docker images to deploy an application. And you may choose a business where there are no options _other_ than to depend on a third party; e.g., you wish to sell a native iOS application to iPhone users. Risk is still risk: a potential pitfall or peril. Sometimes the risk is great enough, compared with the potential return, that the only way to win is not to play. Regardless, this article discusses a set of risks which exist now more then ever; to enumerate and understand these risks is not outdated thinking, it's just good business.
- PhantomGremlin 11y ago
  Any third party (company, or otherwise) that you depend on for your business can elect to make your life more difficult (or nigh on impossible) at any time. This applies to so many things involving computers, and of course most aspects of modern life. Back in the good (bad?) old days there were no such things as "personal" computers. We created our programs on punched cards and trudged down to the computer center to run them. And that, to me, was what I hated the most about the computers of the time. I was dependent on the good graces of the University to get a few precious minutes of computer time to use to run my programs. So, when the first usable PCs were invented, people flocked to them. 8K bytes of RAM meant you could run a BASIC interpreter on your own computer. Once you bought it, you could use it as much as you wanted to, for any reason that you wanted to. Period. It's unfortunate that so much of modern computer life once again depends on the good graces of others.

brudgers 11y ago

How does sharecropping sound compared to working for free on an opensource project controlled by a large corporation?

microcolonel 11y ago
How exactly would an open source project be controlled by a large corporation? The furthest they could go is a CLA, and even that wouldn't prevent forking.
- brudgers 11y ago
  Imagine Android, but with Google using its position to set the direction based on its business interests instead of in full collaboration with the open source community.
  - ocdtrekkie 11y ago
    That's exactly what Google does... In fact, they don't even develop publicly. They push new releases out to open source after a big fanfare announcement of everything they developed behind closed doors. Hardly open source, and primarily directed by Google's business interests.
- rifung 11y ago
  They could be controlled in the sense that they control what patches go into the code base like with Android. Sure, you can always fork the project and make your own, but I'd argue the project is controlled by the corporation.

cft 11y ago

Does this apply to Android App development? This is scary.

ocdtrekkie 11y ago
Android developers (iOS developers too) are randomly and arbitrarily purged from the Play Store (and Apple App Store, respectively) with reckless abandon. Even though sideloading is a thing on Android, if Google bans you, you're basically put out of business. There are literally dozens of these cases you can find on the Internet. Google often does this with no warning, and no real process for appeal unless an Android blog like Android Police decides to write an article about it. Bad press is basically the only way to appeal.