28 ms·

IBM ported Go to s390x mainframes

220 points by pythonist 11y ago

bg46z 11y ago
I think this is awesome? I'm not entirely sure though.
- melling 11y ago
  Write once, compile and run anywhere. Go is gaining traction. IBM doesn't want to lose a sale to an organization that has adopted Go.
  - k__ 11y ago
    lol, last time I talked to IBM Linux was Linux was Linux. Shouldn't Go stuff simply run on their LinuxVMs on Z?
    - akhilcacharya 11y ago
      Different processor architecture?
    - mseepgood 11y ago
      Processor architecture is not processor architecture is not processor architecture. The Go compiler produces native binaries.
      - k__ 11y ago
        They were always talking about their "bare metal" visualization, I thought they could virtualize CPUs too.
        krylon 11y ago
        You can run virtual machines in z/VM, but you can also partition the machine at the firmware level. (Partitions are called "Logical Partitions" or LPARs.) Maybe that was what they meant by "bare metal virtualization".
        wmf 11y ago
        Emulation is never going to be fast.
        rodgerd 11y ago
        Sure it is. The s390x instruction set is microcode emulation on top of a POWER-derived microarchitecture, just as modern x86 chips are microcode on an underlying microarch.
        filereaper 11y ago
        Completely wrong. s390x runs on its own dedicated hardware, it is not emulated on POWER. POWER and s390x are completely separate. source: worked at IBM on their compilers team.
        cbd1984 11y ago
        Virtualization and emulation are not the same thing. You can have one without the other. (Traditionally, virtualization precluded emulation: The hypervisor simply multiplexed hardware, and the guests got what looked like raw access to the real hardware, with no way of "seeing" the hypervisor at all. Very secure, very simple, and you could run a hypervisor as a guest with guests under it, recursively.)
      - vram22 11y ago
        >Processor architecture is not processor architecture is not processor architecture. Interestingly, I've come across multiple computer people who didn't know this basic fact. Hardware engineers, sysadmins and devs who were surprised when I said a binary/EXE for one processor architecture (and hence, machine instruction set) cannot run on another architecture (except for special cases that may exist nowadays, like maybe Apple related to PowerPC vs Intel CPUs?) But even then it is probably due to special extra steps being taken. Edited to add hardware engineer category.
        andrewmunsell 11y ago
        Apple used to support a "universal binary" format[1] to run a "single" binary on both PPC and Intel processors (as well as 32 bit vs 64 bit). This meant that both the PPC and Intel code was inside the same file, but a specific section of the file was executed based on what architecture the computer was using. Of course, modern Macs are 64 bit Intel only, so this isn't really necessary anymore unless a developer needs to support older platforms. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_binary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_binary
        vram22 11y ago
        Cool, that universal binary concept is what I vaguely remembered and meant, thanks. Will check that link.
        Spooky23 11y ago
        Rosetta was cooler. I have an old Mac Pro running some process that was never upgraded. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software)
  - rodgerd 11y ago
    IBM wants to be able to run Docker on zLinux. No Go, no Docker.
- rbanffy 11y ago
  zSeries machines are awesome. Costly, but awesome nevertheless.
ekarulf 11y ago
"Note that we do not accept pull requests" Strange.
- moondowner 11y ago
  Same on https://github.com/golang/go https://github.com/golang/go
  - striking 11y ago
    Same with https://github.com/torvalds/linux https://github.com/torvalds/linux
- nucleardog 11y ago
  They're not doing the actual development on GitHub, just mirroring it there because, to many developers, GitHub is git. Not all that strange. (My guess, anyway.)
  - throwaway999888 11y ago
    The Go team does use Github Issues.
- geofft 11y ago
  That text is unmodified from upstream's README. It's a little unfortunate that GitHub provides so little room to add your own README to a fork, short of modifying upstream's README in the source code itself. You get a sentence at the top, which is about it.
  - jff 11y ago
    I've seen people create their own README and move the upstream one to README.upstream or similar. Seemed sensible to me.
    - praseodym 11y ago
rdtsc 11y ago
Hmm https://github.com/linux-on-ibm-z https://github.com/linux-on-ibm-z has got all kinds of cool goodies: Docker, Cassandra, Kubernetes, Spark
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  And a nice picture: https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/11740175?v=3&s=460 https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/11740175?v=3&s=460
praseodym 11y ago
They have a lot more software in the works, such as Cassanda, MongoDB and Spark [1]. It's a push to have good software support for the IBM LinuxONE machine [2], essentially an IBM z Systems (z13) mainframe that will only run Linux on KVM (i.e. without expensive z/OS or z/VM 'legacy'). I'm not sure about the costs, but it might make for a compelling platform as a 'private cloud' solution. A single mainframe is a lot easier to maintain than racks full of x86 boxes. Apparently one LinuxONE Emperor machine can run up to 8,000 Linux VMs [3] (not sure with what load). [1] https://github.com/linux-on-ibm-z https://github.com/linux-on-ibm-z [2] http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/os/linux/linux-one.html http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/os/linux/linux-one.html [3] http://www.zdnet.com/article/linuxone-ibms-new-linux-mainframes/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/linuxone-ibms-new-linux-mainfra...
- bryanlarsen 11y ago
  up to 8,000 Linux VMs (not sure with what load) Traditionally mainframes were superior for loads that were IO bound rather than CPU bound. I suspect that this is still the case.
  - praseodym 11y ago
    Even with high CPU loads, due to license costs for expensive proprietary software, the advantage can shift towards mainframes when dedicated Application Assist Processors (zAAP) are employed, because usually only the generic CPUs have to be licensed. By offloading work to the 'license-free' zAAPs, overall throughput can be greatly increased with equal license costs. Of course, this scenario isn't what LinuxONE boxes are made for; they are more focused towards open source deployments in the enterprise, with low license costs (usually only support contract costs).
    - mitchty 11y ago
      I used to work at a place that did this. The only issue we ran into was memory was HELLA expensive on the z series boxes. It was to the point that it was cheaper to buy an hp server with 1TiB ram than get 16g of ram from the zaaps. That and getting software to run on it was almost impossible. In the end we ended up moving everything to HP servers for a fraction of the cost.
jhallenworld 11y ago
Maybe for support of Open Ledger since OBC is written in Go: https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/community/blogs/gcuomo/entry/The_Force_of_Blockchain_Awakens?lang=en https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/community/blogs/gcuomo/en...
- wmf 11y ago
  It's for Docker.
Karunamon 11y ago
Is it possible for a mere mortal with an equivalent amount of cash to get ahold of Z/OS to play around with (for use on the Hercules emulator or somesuch)? I've looked around with no success, so I'm guessing not, but any clarification would be nice.
- dbalan 11y ago
  IBM used to run the mainframe challenge, in which they let you play with one. It was more a PR exercise than a competition - http://www-05.ibm.com/employment/uk/graduate-programmes/mainframe/index.shtml http://www-05.ibm.com/employment/uk/graduate-programmes/main...
  - xienze 11y ago
    It's primarily a talent identification exercise. Helps them find the next generation of z/OS developers that they could potentially hire to replace the ones who are retiring.
- tyingq 11y ago
  IBM's official product to run z/OS on an intel box is here: http://www-03.ibm.com/software/products/en/ratideveandtestenviforsystz/ http://www-03.ibm.com/software/products/en/ratideveandtesten... It's just under $5k USD for a 12 month single user license: https://www-112.ibm.com/software/howtobuy/buyingtools/paexpress/Express?P0=E1&part_number=D0M21LL&catalogLocale=en_US&Locale=en_US&country=USA&PT=jsp&CC=USA&VP=&TACTICS=&S_TACT=&S_CMP=&brand=SB03 https://www-112.ibm.com/software/howtobuy/buyingtools/paexpr...
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    Ouch... Guess that answers it definitively then. Shame that if someone wants to learn, they have to resort to copyright infringement...
    - the-dude 11y ago
      Odd conclusion.
donatj 11y ago
What is the deal with z / z/OS? Is it a non-unix OS? I can't find a ton of info in my naïve googling.
- tyingq 11y ago
  "z" is the marketing term for all of IBM's mainframe products. There are several different operating systems that can run on the mainframes. This port only applies to those running Linux on their mainframe, which isn't terribly common. Most would be running zOS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z/OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z/OS) or TPF. Their VM hypervisor is also commonly used.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    The AS/400 line uses i, not z.
    - tyingq 11y ago
      The AS/400 isn't a mainframe. It sits in the same space as VAX/VMS and the HP3000 line. Edit: The common term for these, during their heyday, was "minicomputer" or "midrange".
      - pjmlp 11y ago
        Sure, but I still see it as a mainframe, even though you could seat on them (I actually used to do that on a dead one).
- praseodym 11y ago
  It's an architecture called z/Architecture, used for z Systems CPUs such as the z13 CPUs in IBM mainframes (the z13, same name). The 'z' in 'IBM z Systems' stands for 'zero downtime'. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z/Architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z/Architecture [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z13_(microprocessor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z13_(microprocessor)

220 points by pythonist 11y ago

bg46z 11y ago

I think this is awesome? I'm not entirely sure though.

melling 11y ago
Write once, compile and run anywhere. Go is gaining traction. IBM doesn't want to lose a sale to an organization that has adopted Go.
- k__ 11y ago
  lol, last time I talked to IBM Linux was Linux was Linux. Shouldn't Go stuff simply run on their LinuxVMs on Z?
  - akhilcacharya 11y ago
    Different processor architecture?
  - mseepgood 11y ago
    Processor architecture is not processor architecture is not processor architecture. The Go compiler produces native binaries.
    - k__ 11y ago
      They were always talking about their "bare metal" visualization, I thought they could virtualize CPUs too.
      - krylon 11y ago
        You can run virtual machines in z/VM, but you can also partition the machine at the firmware level. (Partitions are called "Logical Partitions" or LPARs.) Maybe that was what they meant by "bare metal virtualization".
      - wmf 11y ago
        Emulation is never going to be fast.
        rodgerd 11y ago
        Sure it is. The s390x instruction set is microcode emulation on top of a POWER-derived microarchitecture, just as modern x86 chips are microcode on an underlying microarch.
        filereaper 11y ago
        Completely wrong. s390x runs on its own dedicated hardware, it is not emulated on POWER. POWER and s390x are completely separate. source: worked at IBM on their compilers team.
      - cbd1984 11y ago
        Virtualization and emulation are not the same thing. You can have one without the other. (Traditionally, virtualization precluded emulation: The hypervisor simply multiplexed hardware, and the guests got what looked like raw access to the real hardware, with no way of "seeing" the hypervisor at all. Very secure, very simple, and you could run a hypervisor as a guest with guests under it, recursively.)
    - vram22 11y ago
      >Processor architecture is not processor architecture is not processor architecture. Interestingly, I've come across multiple computer people who didn't know this basic fact. Hardware engineers, sysadmins and devs who were surprised when I said a binary/EXE for one processor architecture (and hence, machine instruction set) cannot run on another architecture (except for special cases that may exist nowadays, like maybe Apple related to PowerPC vs Intel CPUs?) But even then it is probably due to special extra steps being taken. Edited to add hardware engineer category.
      - andrewmunsell 11y ago
        Apple used to support a "universal binary" format[1] to run a "single" binary on both PPC and Intel processors (as well as 32 bit vs 64 bit). This meant that both the PPC and Intel code was inside the same file, but a specific section of the file was executed based on what architecture the computer was using. Of course, modern Macs are 64 bit Intel only, so this isn't really necessary anymore unless a developer needs to support older platforms. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_binary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_binary
        vram22 11y ago
        Cool, that universal binary concept is what I vaguely remembered and meant, thanks. Will check that link.
        Spooky23 11y ago
        Rosetta was cooler. I have an old Mac Pro running some process that was never upgraded. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software)
- rodgerd 11y ago
  IBM wants to be able to run Docker on zLinux. No Go, no Docker.
rbanffy 11y ago
zSeries machines are awesome. Costly, but awesome nevertheless.

ekarulf 11y ago

"Note that we do not accept pull requests" Strange.

moondowner 11y ago
Same on https://github.com/golang/go https://github.com/golang/go
- striking 11y ago
  Same with https://github.com/torvalds/linux https://github.com/torvalds/linux
nucleardog 11y ago
They're not doing the actual development on GitHub, just mirroring it there because, to many developers, GitHub is git. Not all that strange. (My guess, anyway.)
- throwaway999888 11y ago
  The Go team does use Github Issues.
geofft 11y ago
That text is unmodified from upstream's README. It's a little unfortunate that GitHub provides so little room to add your own README to a fork, short of modifying upstream's README in the source code itself. You get a sentence at the top, which is about it.
- jff 11y ago
  I've seen people create their own README and move the upstream one to README.upstream or similar. Seemed sensible to me.
  - praseodym 11y ago

rdtsc 11y ago

Hmm https://github.com/linux-on-ibm-z https://github.com/linux-on-ibm-z has got all kinds of cool goodies: Docker, Cassandra, Kubernetes, Spark

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
And a nice picture: https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/11740175?v=3&s=460 https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/11740175?v=3&s=460

praseodym 11y ago

They have a lot more software in the works, such as Cassanda, MongoDB and Spark [1]. It's a push to have good software support for the IBM LinuxONE machine [2], essentially an IBM z Systems (z13) mainframe that will only run Linux on KVM (i.e. without expensive z/OS or z/VM 'legacy'). I'm not sure about the costs, but it might make for a compelling platform as a 'private cloud' solution. A single mainframe is a lot easier to maintain than racks full of x86 boxes. Apparently one LinuxONE Emperor machine can run up to 8,000 Linux VMs [3] (not sure with what load). [1] https://github.com/linux-on-ibm-z https://github.com/linux-on-ibm-z [2] http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/os/linux/linux-one.html http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/os/linux/linux-one.html [3] http://www.zdnet.com/article/linuxone-ibms-new-linux-mainframes/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/linuxone-ibms-new-linux-mainfra...

bryanlarsen 11y ago
up to 8,000 Linux VMs (not sure with what load) Traditionally mainframes were superior for loads that were IO bound rather than CPU bound. I suspect that this is still the case.
- praseodym 11y ago
  Even with high CPU loads, due to license costs for expensive proprietary software, the advantage can shift towards mainframes when dedicated Application Assist Processors (zAAP) are employed, because usually only the generic CPUs have to be licensed. By offloading work to the 'license-free' zAAPs, overall throughput can be greatly increased with equal license costs. Of course, this scenario isn't what LinuxONE boxes are made for; they are more focused towards open source deployments in the enterprise, with low license costs (usually only support contract costs).
  - mitchty 11y ago
    I used to work at a place that did this. The only issue we ran into was memory was HELLA expensive on the z series boxes. It was to the point that it was cheaper to buy an hp server with 1TiB ram than get 16g of ram from the zaaps. That and getting software to run on it was almost impossible. In the end we ended up moving everything to HP servers for a fraction of the cost.

jhallenworld 11y ago

Maybe for support of Open Ledger since OBC is written in Go: https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/community/blogs/gcuomo/entry/The_Force_of_Blockchain_Awakens?lang=en https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/community/blogs/gcuomo/en...

wmf 11y ago
It's for Docker.

Karunamon 11y ago

Is it possible for a mere mortal with an equivalent amount of cash to get ahold of Z/OS to play around with (for use on the Hercules emulator or somesuch)? I've looked around with no success, so I'm guessing not, but any clarification would be nice.

dbalan 11y ago
IBM used to run the mainframe challenge, in which they let you play with one. It was more a PR exercise than a competition - http://www-05.ibm.com/employment/uk/graduate-programmes/mainframe/index.shtml http://www-05.ibm.com/employment/uk/graduate-programmes/main...
- xienze 11y ago
  It's primarily a talent identification exercise. Helps them find the next generation of z/OS developers that they could potentially hire to replace the ones who are retiring.
tyingq 11y ago
IBM's official product to run z/OS on an intel box is here: http://www-03.ibm.com/software/products/en/ratideveandtestenviforsystz/ http://www-03.ibm.com/software/products/en/ratideveandtesten... It's just under $5k USD for a 12 month single user license: https://www-112.ibm.com/software/howtobuy/buyingtools/paexpress/Express?P0=E1&part_number=D0M21LL&catalogLocale=en_US&Locale=en_US&country=USA&PT=jsp&CC=USA&VP=&TACTICS=&S_TACT=&S_CMP=&brand=SB03 https://www-112.ibm.com/software/howtobuy/buyingtools/paexpr...
- Karunamon 11y ago
  Ouch... Guess that answers it definitively then. Shame that if someone wants to learn, they have to resort to copyright infringement...
  - the-dude 11y ago
    Odd conclusion.

donatj 11y ago

What is the deal with z / z/OS? Is it a non-unix OS? I can't find a ton of info in my naïve googling.

tyingq 11y ago
"z" is the marketing term for all of IBM's mainframe products. There are several different operating systems that can run on the mainframes. This port only applies to those running Linux on their mainframe, which isn't terribly common. Most would be running zOS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z/OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z/OS) or TPF. Their VM hypervisor is also commonly used.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  The AS/400 line uses i, not z.
  - tyingq 11y ago
    The AS/400 isn't a mainframe. It sits in the same space as VAX/VMS and the HP3000 line. Edit: The common term for these, during their heyday, was "minicomputer" or "midrange".
    - pjmlp 11y ago
      Sure, but I still see it as a mainframe, even though you could seat on them (I actually used to do that on a dead one).
praseodym 11y ago
It's an architecture called z/Architecture, used for z Systems CPUs such as the z13 CPUs in IBM mainframes (the z13, same name). The 'z' in 'IBM z Systems' stands for 'zero downtime'. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z/Architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z/Architecture [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z13_(microprocessor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z13_(microprocessor)