7 ms·

First Signs That You Should Not Take That Job

55 points by gerryg 11y ago

bshimmin 11y ago
I'm pretty sure this is linkbait advertising "Approved Index", whoever they may be. I'm also pretty sure there's nothing in here that someone with half a brain couldn't figure out for themselves.
- stuaxo 11y ago
  This may be so - it's a pretty amusing infographic though, most people can probably relate to a few of these.
  - VLM 11y ago
    Apparently "airplane passenger seat safety card" as a web comic style can be implemented better than expected. I wouldn't mind seeing more.
- Illniyar 11y ago
  QThat is what corporate blogs are for. Nothing wrong with it if the content is interesting, which in this case it is.
- S4M 11y ago
  You are right. I read the link and it seems to be made by an HR consultancy company, and the content of the post has nothing life changing. It's also interesting to notice that the submitter has never commented on HN but has submitted lots of HR related links.
- capkutay 11y ago
  Yeah who would have thought a current employee saying "run while you still can" is negative? Great insight.
kabdib 11y ago
Bad signs: - They are too eager to have you. - All of the critical work is being done by contractors. - "This is just a prototype of the software," they say, "There's no way we're going to ship this." Double the "run away" factor if the company is doing a hardware product and the runway is less than a year . . . maybe two. - Your old boss from two years ago calls you up and says, "Interested in rescuing a start-up?"
- jguimont 11y ago
  However rescuing a startup/project is good as a contractor. Did it more than once and it is rewarding in both experience and money.
  - JoshTriplett 11y ago
    As long as you get paid in money rather than stock, and you cash the checks the minute they arrive.
  - Piskvorrr 11y ago
    The important par is "as a contractor" (with clearly defined exit conditions). Also, some projects are beyond rescue.
  - odonnellryan 11y ago
    It depends. I haven't exactly rescued a startup, but worked on several completely failed products to bring them up to "workable" status for a lot of large companies. Usually, if I'm working directly for the company, it is great. They understand the previous team failed and they want to move forward. It might be a little tough to ultimately gain their trust, but confidence goes a long way. If I'm working as a subcontractor for the contractor/team that failed, it won't be fun (in my experience). They are not grateful, they are going to blow budget (their problem, but they make it yours) and they will blame you when the time comes for it. Also, they take forever to pay.
ryandrake 11y ago
I like it--unfortunately, you usually never get a glimpse of those warning signs until after you accept and move your family across the country. Interviews with toxic companies are like tours of North Korea. Carefully scripted, they select what you see and who you talk to, and make sure all the crap is well hidden.
- fennecfoxen 11y ago
  > you usually never get a glimpse of those warning signs until after you accept and move your family across the country For what it's worth, finding new jobs without moving your family is a prime advantage of technology hubs like Silicon Valley (and, to a lesser extent, New York / London / etc).
  - pnathan 11y ago
    I can't stress this enough. Having done the 'work in non-hub' thing before, and having moved for it: not worth it. Having the large number of jobs open is a big deal. Means that, for the right company, you can literally just walk into a different floor of the same building you were working at two weeks ago. It's a massive advantage. Not to mention the networking between companies, the competition, and the speed of advance. All of that is for you yourself, without family. Imagine the same thing, but for your children and their social networks & education. :-/
    - Someone1234 11y ago
      > I can't stress this enough. Having done the 'work in non-hub' thing before, and having moved for it: not worth it. I'm struggling to read that... Are you saying that moving to somewhere like Silicon Valley is worth it or not worth it?
      - pnathan 11y ago
        It's not worth it moving for each job. Just go to a place where you can stay long term. Obviously if you want to move a lot, go for it. :-}
bulatb 11y ago
On mobile there's a giant "HR quiz" thing taking up the screen and masquerading as the content. Scroll down to see the infographic.
cballard 11y ago
The weird thing is when everyone else doesn't mind these, so you can't catch it with #7. My current job has stuff like: - Open office with music playing, people talk at will (RIP, focus) - Long hours that people just do willingly (i.e. no one asks them to) - Spent money on making office look nice, yet have desks from Ikea But everyone else thinks it's the best place to work ever - "OMG, let's have beers! At work! OMG!"
- odonnellryan 11y ago
  My desk is from Ikea! What's wrong with Ikea?! ;)
- Piskvorrr 11y ago
  In my experience, "beers at work" correlates with "...because we need you to stay late (because...?)," indeed. Doesn't need to be all bad - if you have nothing more interesting to do (and that's not meant ironically: building something can be pretty awesome, if you're single and work with interesting tech; OTOH, if you have other responsibilities, the attractiveness of all-night hacking sessions is...lower). The actual signs that something is amiss come when you do not volunteer your time - will your boss(es) just say "yeah, we understand that volunteering is your right"? Good. Do they say "well, we understand that not volunteering is your right"? A little weird, but still okay. Do they say "but we will pay you for the extra hours"? Red flag - does that mean that normally they wouldn't? Do they say "but everyone else does"? Big red flag, emotional manipulation attempt. Do they say "but we already promised delivery to the client"? RUN, ain't a red flag big enough for that.
- Someone1234 11y ago
  > Spent money on making office look nice, yet have desks from Ikea You say that like it is a bad thing. I'd take an Ikea "LINNMON" table top with their "GERTON" adjustable legs over half of the crappy desks I've had to work at. Their "BEKANT" range isn't too shabby either (inc. the BEKANT sit/stand). I'd say Ikea's office chairs are "meh" but their actual table tops/desks are definitely up to par. I wouldn't be disappointed if I rolled into an office to find them.
  - 11y ago
sbenj 11y ago
For software jobs, if the coding interviews are too easy it's likely you will be working with people who are not very skilled, both because the low bar allows poor programmers in and because it's a sign that the people putting together the interview aren't very good. And of course that means you're likely to be working with lousy code, and we all know how much fun that is.
- herge 11y ago
  On the other end of the stick, an interviewer really should avoid really tricky code interviews/tests. I find reading a candidate's code is more useful to evaluate their ability to write clear code, to open up conversations about harder problems around the code, or optimisations, or whatever, than to probe their knowledge of programming tricks. Having a gotcha coding test where even good candidates would spend a lot of hours or miss entirely is not very interesting, as most working solutions will resemble themselves and not really show the strengths and weaknesses of the candidate.
  - tdumitrescu 11y ago
    Yeah, calibrating coding questions for timed interviews is really tricky and in my experience always requires iteration. Trick questions with an "aha!" moment lead to binary outcomes (either you pass or completely flop) and don't give much useful signal. On the other hand, simplistic questions tend to focus the interviewer on critique of stylistic details and personal coding habits/preferences which don't say much about the interviewee's effectiveness.
arethuza 11y ago
One from my own past "How are you with managing difficult people?"
kelukelugames 11y ago
A few of my own. 1) Fake reviews on Glassdoor. 2) People don't give real answers to "Are there things you that could be better?" or other probing questions. 3) Everyone is the same gender or race. This usually doesn't matter because people are generally mature and respectful. But it's not a chance that's worth taking.
- odonnellryan 11y ago
  I don't get the Glassdoor thing. I was contracting for a few months at a company that literally asked all their employees to leave reviews on Glassdoor. They did. So like 20 reviews, all five star (one 4 actually, he got called into a meeting) all from the same IP, same domain for email. How do they not catch that?
  - zorked 11y ago
    Their legit review probably also fit that profile (same IP, same domain, etc.)
    - odonnellryan 11y ago
      Yeah, but not 15+ within a week, is my thought.
  - DrScump 11y ago
    It would be really ironic if that company is Yelp.
- blisterpeanuts 11y ago
  What's the problem with gender or race? A sign of sexism or racism? You could just as well argue that it's a company that values competence over political correctness.
  - kelukelugames 11y ago
    This isn't about diversity. It's about safety. Have you ever been harassed? It's not fun. Chances of that are higher in a homogenous environment because it breeds ignorance. Edit: You could just as well argue that it's a company that values competence over political correctness. If a single woman or Asian person sets off your "political correctness" detector then maybe it needs recalibration.
mettamage 11y ago
To what extent are these things true? To me the infographic looks a bit exaggerated. Or are there people here that saw some of these points in their own experiences while being interviewed? (studying @ uni myself)
donkeyd 11y ago
I have to say that #5 isn't always true in IT. I see lots of companies that are growing rapidly, but are selective at who they hire. Therefore they have a constant need for people in pretty much the same role. The last 3 companies I worked for had jobs that were always open, and they were great companies to work for.
- mercer 11y ago
  Yeah, that was the only one I immediately questioned. Many companies that I've worked for as a contractor were permanently looking for developers, and I was their more-expensive plan B. The problem was that they either just didn't get enough applicants, or the ones who did apply proved incompetent right away. In one company they were so desperate that they blindly hired someone who appeared to have a pretty decent track record. After two full weeks of him not asking any questions and producing code that seemed 'off', I got suspicious. Under the pretense of needing some help with a trivial bug, I sat down next to him and observed, in total shock, that he didn't know even the most basic keyboard shortcuts like copy and paste or alt-tab. I'm not sure how he managed to write any code at all and suspect he outsourced it... Of course, the real problem is that these companies are not willing to pay competitive salaries...
nqzero 11y ago
my #1: the company posts clickbait on HN
fasouto 11y ago
I will add one more: - There's no onboarding process for new hires I've been in this situation twice and it sucks...

55 points by gerryg 11y ago

I'm pretty sure this is linkbait advertising "Approved Index", whoever they may be. I'm also pretty sure there's nothing in here that someone with half a brain couldn't figure out for themselves.

stuaxo 11y ago
This may be so - it's a pretty amusing infographic though, most people can probably relate to a few of these.
- VLM 11y ago
  Apparently "airplane passenger seat safety card" as a web comic style can be implemented better than expected. I wouldn't mind seeing more.
Illniyar 11y ago
QThat is what corporate blogs are for. Nothing wrong with it if the content is interesting, which in this case it is.
S4M 11y ago
You are right. I read the link and it seems to be made by an HR consultancy company, and the content of the post has nothing life changing. It's also interesting to notice that the submitter has never commented on HN but has submitted lots of HR related links.
capkutay 11y ago
Yeah who would have thought a current employee saying "run while you still can" is negative? Great insight.

kabdib 11y ago

Bad signs: - They are too eager to have you. - All of the critical work is being done by contractors. - "This is just a prototype of the software," they say, "There's no way we're going to ship this." Double the "run away" factor if the company is doing a hardware product and the runway is less than a year . . . maybe two. - Your old boss from two years ago calls you up and says, "Interested in rescuing a start-up?"

jguimont 11y ago
However rescuing a startup/project is good as a contractor. Did it more than once and it is rewarding in both experience and money.
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
  As long as you get paid in money rather than stock, and you cash the checks the minute they arrive.
- Piskvorrr 11y ago
  The important par is "as a contractor" (with clearly defined exit conditions). Also, some projects are beyond rescue.
- odonnellryan 11y ago
  It depends. I haven't exactly rescued a startup, but worked on several completely failed products to bring them up to "workable" status for a lot of large companies. Usually, if I'm working directly for the company, it is great. They understand the previous team failed and they want to move forward. It might be a little tough to ultimately gain their trust, but confidence goes a long way. If I'm working as a subcontractor for the contractor/team that failed, it won't be fun (in my experience). They are not grateful, they are going to blow budget (their problem, but they make it yours) and they will blame you when the time comes for it. Also, they take forever to pay.

ryandrake 11y ago

I like it--unfortunately, you usually never get a glimpse of those warning signs until after you accept and move your family across the country. Interviews with toxic companies are like tours of North Korea. Carefully scripted, they select what you see and who you talk to, and make sure all the crap is well hidden.

fennecfoxen 11y ago
> you usually never get a glimpse of those warning signs until after you accept and move your family across the country For what it's worth, finding new jobs without moving your family is a prime advantage of technology hubs like Silicon Valley (and, to a lesser extent, New York / London / etc).
- pnathan 11y ago
  I can't stress this enough. Having done the 'work in non-hub' thing before, and having moved for it: not worth it. Having the large number of jobs open is a big deal. Means that, for the right company, you can literally just walk into a different floor of the same building you were working at two weeks ago. It's a massive advantage. Not to mention the networking between companies, the competition, and the speed of advance. All of that is for you yourself, without family. Imagine the same thing, but for your children and their social networks & education. :-/
  - Someone1234 11y ago
    > I can't stress this enough. Having done the 'work in non-hub' thing before, and having moved for it: not worth it. I'm struggling to read that... Are you saying that moving to somewhere like Silicon Valley is worth it or not worth it?
    - pnathan 11y ago
      It's not worth it moving for each job. Just go to a place where you can stay long term. Obviously if you want to move a lot, go for it. :-}

bulatb 11y ago

On mobile there's a giant "HR quiz" thing taking up the screen and masquerading as the content. Scroll down to see the infographic.

cballard 11y ago

The weird thing is when everyone else doesn't mind these, so you can't catch it with #7. My current job has stuff like: - Open office with music playing, people talk at will (RIP, focus) - Long hours that people just do willingly (i.e. no one asks them to) - Spent money on making office look nice, yet have desks from Ikea But everyone else thinks it's the best place to work ever - "OMG, let's have beers! At work! OMG!"

odonnellryan 11y ago
My desk is from Ikea! What's wrong with Ikea?! ;)
Piskvorrr 11y ago
In my experience, "beers at work" correlates with "...because we need you to stay late (because...?)," indeed. Doesn't need to be all bad - if you have nothing more interesting to do (and that's not meant ironically: building something can be pretty awesome, if you're single and work with interesting tech; OTOH, if you have other responsibilities, the attractiveness of all-night hacking sessions is...lower). The actual signs that something is amiss come when you do not volunteer your time - will your boss(es) just say "yeah, we understand that volunteering is your right"? Good. Do they say "well, we understand that not volunteering is your right"? A little weird, but still okay. Do they say "but we will pay you for the extra hours"? Red flag - does that mean that normally they wouldn't? Do they say "but everyone else does"? Big red flag, emotional manipulation attempt. Do they say "but we already promised delivery to the client"? RUN, ain't a red flag big enough for that.
Someone1234 11y ago
> Spent money on making office look nice, yet have desks from Ikea You say that like it is a bad thing. I'd take an Ikea "LINNMON" table top with their "GERTON" adjustable legs over half of the crappy desks I've had to work at. Their "BEKANT" range isn't too shabby either (inc. the BEKANT sit/stand). I'd say Ikea's office chairs are "meh" but their actual table tops/desks are definitely up to par. I wouldn't be disappointed if I rolled into an office to find them.
- 11y ago

sbenj 11y ago

For software jobs, if the coding interviews are too easy it's likely you will be working with people who are not very skilled, both because the low bar allows poor programmers in and because it's a sign that the people putting together the interview aren't very good. And of course that means you're likely to be working with lousy code, and we all know how much fun that is.

herge 11y ago
On the other end of the stick, an interviewer really should avoid really tricky code interviews/tests. I find reading a candidate's code is more useful to evaluate their ability to write clear code, to open up conversations about harder problems around the code, or optimisations, or whatever, than to probe their knowledge of programming tricks. Having a gotcha coding test where even good candidates would spend a lot of hours or miss entirely is not very interesting, as most working solutions will resemble themselves and not really show the strengths and weaknesses of the candidate.
- tdumitrescu 11y ago
  Yeah, calibrating coding questions for timed interviews is really tricky and in my experience always requires iteration. Trick questions with an "aha!" moment lead to binary outcomes (either you pass or completely flop) and don't give much useful signal. On the other hand, simplistic questions tend to focus the interviewer on critique of stylistic details and personal coding habits/preferences which don't say much about the interviewee's effectiveness.

arethuza 11y ago

One from my own past "How are you with managing difficult people?"

kelukelugames 11y ago

A few of my own. 1) Fake reviews on Glassdoor. 2) People don't give real answers to "Are there things you that could be better?" or other probing questions. 3) Everyone is the same gender or race. This usually doesn't matter because people are generally mature and respectful. But it's not a chance that's worth taking.

odonnellryan 11y ago
I don't get the Glassdoor thing. I was contracting for a few months at a company that literally asked all their employees to leave reviews on Glassdoor. They did. So like 20 reviews, all five star (one 4 actually, he got called into a meeting) all from the same IP, same domain for email. How do they not catch that?
- zorked 11y ago
  Their legit review probably also fit that profile (same IP, same domain, etc.)
  - odonnellryan 11y ago
    Yeah, but not 15+ within a week, is my thought.
- DrScump 11y ago
  It would be really ironic if that company is Yelp.
blisterpeanuts 11y ago
What's the problem with gender or race? A sign of sexism or racism? You could just as well argue that it's a company that values competence over political correctness.
- kelukelugames 11y ago
  This isn't about diversity. It's about safety. Have you ever been harassed? It's not fun. Chances of that are higher in a homogenous environment because it breeds ignorance. Edit: You could just as well argue that it's a company that values competence over political correctness. If a single woman or Asian person sets off your "political correctness" detector then maybe it needs recalibration.

mettamage 11y ago

To what extent are these things true? To me the infographic looks a bit exaggerated. Or are there people here that saw some of these points in their own experiences while being interviewed? (studying @ uni myself)

donkeyd 11y ago

I have to say that #5 isn't always true in IT. I see lots of companies that are growing rapidly, but are selective at who they hire. Therefore they have a constant need for people in pretty much the same role. The last 3 companies I worked for had jobs that were always open, and they were great companies to work for.

mercer 11y ago
Yeah, that was the only one I immediately questioned. Many companies that I've worked for as a contractor were permanently looking for developers, and I was their more-expensive plan B. The problem was that they either just didn't get enough applicants, or the ones who did apply proved incompetent right away. In one company they were so desperate that they blindly hired someone who appeared to have a pretty decent track record. After two full weeks of him not asking any questions and producing code that seemed 'off', I got suspicious. Under the pretense of needing some help with a trivial bug, I sat down next to him and observed, in total shock, that he didn't know even the most basic keyboard shortcuts like copy and paste or alt-tab. I'm not sure how he managed to write any code at all and suspect he outsourced it... Of course, the real problem is that these companies are not willing to pay competitive salaries...

nqzero 11y ago

my #1: the company posts clickbait on HN

fasouto 11y ago

I will add one more: - There's no onboarding process for new hires I've been in this situation twice and it sucks...