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Well, even if that's true, we can't pretend that 2008 wasn't caused by unlevel playing field, intransparent markets, faulty regulation, corruption and great con

by tomp 11y ago

Well, even if that's true, we can't pretend that 2008 wasn't caused by unlevel playing field, intransparent markets, faulty regulation, corruption and great concentration of power (in the hands of banks and rating agencies).

rayiner 11y ago
Was it caused by those things? Or was it just a speculative bubble popping, which has happened countless times in the history of the republic, long before the modern regulatory state and modern banks ever existed?
- addicted 11y ago
  The Market cannot fail. It can only be failed.
  - EGreg 11y ago
    Poe's law applies here
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Started Googling about markets being treated as religion, found this 1999 article from the Atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/past/issues/99mar/marketgod.htm http://www.theatlantic.com/past/issues/99mar/marketgod.htm "The East Asians' troubles, votaries argue, derive from their heretical deviation from free-market orthodoxy -- they were practitioners of "crony capitalism," of "ethnocapitalism," of "statist capitalism," not of the one true faith." Interesting reading.
- ra1n85 11y ago
  Very much speculative bubbles being popped. One of the most interesting things was what Dr. Michael Burry (one of the main characters in Michael Lewis' The Big Short) noted in a recent interview: "The biggest hope I had was that we would enter a new era of personal responsibility. Instead, we doubled down on blaming others, and this is long-term tragic." http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/12/big-short-genius-says-another-crisis-is-coming.html# http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/12/big-short-geniu... And having seen that things like interest only loans are still a thing, and very much still offered and applied for, I would tend to agree.
  - rorykoehler 11y ago
    Huge amounts of fraud too. Wall street is basically a pyramid scheme at this point where everyone thinks they'll get out on time to get rich.... mirroring symptoms of a serious gambling addiction.
    - ra1n85 11y ago
      Would agree, but I think greed doesn't fully capture the culture. Incompetence plays a large part in this, on the part of the regulators and the actual banks.
      - rorykoehler 11y ago
        The regulators refused to downgrade the credit ratings of products as the banks would go to their competitors if they did, and they would lose money. Corruption, greed, incompetence... call it what you like, it still falls under fraud. If there is one snapshot of behaviour in a capitalist system that highlights the flaw of the system it has to be this. Why do regulators need to make money? An absurd conflict of interest.

by tomp 11y ago

rayiner 11y ago

Was it caused by those things? Or was it just a speculative bubble popping, which has happened countless times in the history of the republic, long before the modern regulatory state and modern banks ever existed?

addicted 11y ago
The Market cannot fail. It can only be failed.
- EGreg 11y ago
  Poe's law applies here
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Started Googling about markets being treated as religion, found this 1999 article from the Atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/past/issues/99mar/marketgod.htm http://www.theatlantic.com/past/issues/99mar/marketgod.htm "The East Asians' troubles, votaries argue, derive from their heretical deviation from free-market orthodoxy -- they were practitioners of "crony capitalism," of "ethnocapitalism," of "statist capitalism," not of the one true faith." Interesting reading.
ra1n85 11y ago
Very much speculative bubbles being popped. One of the most interesting things was what Dr. Michael Burry (one of the main characters in Michael Lewis' The Big Short) noted in a recent interview: "The biggest hope I had was that we would enter a new era of personal responsibility. Instead, we doubled down on blaming others, and this is long-term tragic." http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/12/big-short-genius-says-another-crisis-is-coming.html# http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/12/big-short-geniu... And having seen that things like interest only loans are still a thing, and very much still offered and applied for, I would tend to agree.
- rorykoehler 11y ago
  Huge amounts of fraud too. Wall street is basically a pyramid scheme at this point where everyone thinks they'll get out on time to get rich.... mirroring symptoms of a serious gambling addiction.
  - ra1n85 11y ago
    Would agree, but I think greed doesn't fully capture the culture. Incompetence plays a large part in this, on the part of the regulators and the actual banks.
    - rorykoehler 11y ago
      The regulators refused to downgrade the credit ratings of products as the banks would go to their competitors if they did, and they would lose money. Corruption, greed, incompetence... call it what you like, it still falls under fraud. If there is one snapshot of behaviour in a capitalist system that highlights the flaw of the system it has to be this. Why do regulators need to make money? An absurd conflict of interest.