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Sorry the intro moves so fast. The answer is here: But if web browsers are so bad, why do they keep spreading? [...] mainly because the alternative is

Sorry the intro moves so fast. The answer is here: But if web browsers are so bad, why do they keep spreading? [...] mainly because the alternative is defective. The startup, academic and open source communities all have their weight behind Unix, but Unix is a dead end. Like many people I used to do everything in the browser (using windows, but treating it like a Chromebook). When I became I programmer I switched to Unix and tried to use the command line for everything I could. It was amazing! I wanted other people to share this experience, but couldn't make any converts. It turned out that it was only working for me because I was willing to plow hours into fixing problems. For most non-programmers, command line Unix isn't a good enough user environment to be a competitor to the web. And we really need that competitor.

pjmlp 11y ago
Xerox PARC, that is the real competitor. I am also a programmer, know UNIX before Linux was a thing, as my introduction was with Xenix. But I was already versed in systems like the Amiga. The CLI might be interesting, but a REPL environment is so much more powerful. POSIX is stuck with UNIX System V. It hardly changed anything in terms of OS architecture and they don't seem to be adding anything new, in terms of modern systems.
pampa 11y ago
I still think it is a very big stretch to go from web browsers (which suck on many levels) to unix bashing. Most non-programmers don't come anywhere close to a terminal window, despite running some form of unix on their devices. I agree that a unix command line is not a good interface for non-programmers, but it is good for people who have to work with large quantities of textual information, and source code IS text. I think that the main problem is that there is not much (commercial or academic) interest in empowering non-technical users. There are some specialty tools for non-programmers like excel macros, or task automation in photoshop, but general purpose system that let the average user program the computer without actually programming it never took of.
- seagreen 11y ago
  I still think it is a very big stretch to go from web browsers (which suck on many levels) to unix bashing. This is a totally legit criticism. I think this connection is probably the most interesting idea I have in the post. Interesting doesn't make it right though. I just know from personal experience when I try to get people to switch away from webapps and they ask "what should I use instead?" I don't have a good answer. I could say "use desktop GUI apps", but that's not really convincing. What would be convincing would be "use this awesome command line/REPL environment!", but I have trouble honestly suggesting that (even though I love my setup) because I know they won't have a good experience with current command line environments.
tremon 11y ago
It turned out that it was only working for me because I was willing to plow hours into fixing problems Fixing problems, or finding solutions for your problems? Every advanced system has a learning curve, and Unix is an advanced system without a well-defined domain. It's great that you invested the time to make it work for you, but that you feel that it is inappropriate for "most non-programmers" is not necessarily a failure of the system. As a sibling post said, "there is not much interest in empowering non-technical users". I think that's close, but I would add that it's a problem of scale: non-technical users require domain-specific solutions. If there were one single solution to empower non-technical users, there would surely be commercial interest. I'm sorry, but I can't help feeling that the article has a high dose of "lo! I've seen the light and my light will solve every problem on the planet". It ignores the many good things Unix has enabled, and is very light on the details how a better system would look (or how it would be secured -- befriend, really?).
- seagreen 11y ago
  Man, "befriend" is the one part of the article I can totally stand behind! Why the heck doesn't my computer have a "befriend" command? No wonder FB/LinkedIn/every webapp ever is beating us (meaning the FOSS OS community, i.e. Linux) on mindshare. (You could implement this different ways, but I'm imagining that once you friend someone they can see a select subset of posts on your computer. For me that would be status posts, some photos, some WIP code, etc. This would be a huge deal. Think about how many webapps it would make unnecessary.) EDIT: Less flowery sentences.
  - tremon 11y ago
    I didn't mean to imply that was a bad idea. I meant that you provided no details on how it could be implemented or secured. That's more than just an implementation detail to me. For example, your code as shown implies that you can reach your friend's computer through an Internet name (through dns even?). That already assumes that these non-technical friends can register their own Internet names, and care enough to do so. But that assumption is well outside the bounds of "unix sucks".

pjmlp 11y ago

Xerox PARC, that is the real competitor. I am also a programmer, know UNIX before Linux was a thing, as my introduction was with Xenix. But I was already versed in systems like the Amiga. The CLI might be interesting, but a REPL environment is so much more powerful. POSIX is stuck with UNIX System V. It hardly changed anything in terms of OS architecture and they don't seem to be adding anything new, in terms of modern systems.

pampa 11y ago

I still think it is a very big stretch to go from web browsers (which suck on many levels) to unix bashing. Most non-programmers don't come anywhere close to a terminal window, despite running some form of unix on their devices. I agree that a unix command line is not a good interface for non-programmers, but it is good for people who have to work with large quantities of textual information, and source code IS text. I think that the main problem is that there is not much (commercial or academic) interest in empowering non-technical users. There are some specialty tools for non-programmers like excel macros, or task automation in photoshop, but general purpose system that let the average user program the computer without actually programming it never took of.

seagreen 11y ago
I still think it is a very big stretch to go from web browsers (which suck on many levels) to unix bashing. This is a totally legit criticism. I think this connection is probably the most interesting idea I have in the post. Interesting doesn't make it right though. I just know from personal experience when I try to get people to switch away from webapps and they ask "what should I use instead?" I don't have a good answer. I could say "use desktop GUI apps", but that's not really convincing. What would be convincing would be "use this awesome command line/REPL environment!", but I have trouble honestly suggesting that (even though I love my setup) because I know they won't have a good experience with current command line environments.

tremon 11y ago

It turned out that it was only working for me because I was willing to plow hours into fixing problems Fixing problems, or finding solutions for your problems? Every advanced system has a learning curve, and Unix is an advanced system without a well-defined domain. It's great that you invested the time to make it work for you, but that you feel that it is inappropriate for "most non-programmers" is not necessarily a failure of the system. As a sibling post said, "there is not much interest in empowering non-technical users". I think that's close, but I would add that it's a problem of scale: non-technical users require domain-specific solutions. If there were one single solution to empower non-technical users, there would surely be commercial interest. I'm sorry, but I can't help feeling that the article has a high dose of "lo! I've seen the light and my light will solve every problem on the planet". It ignores the many good things Unix has enabled, and is very light on the details how a better system would look (or how it would be secured -- befriend, really?).

seagreen 11y ago
Man, "befriend" is the one part of the article I can totally stand behind! Why the heck doesn't my computer have a "befriend" command? No wonder FB/LinkedIn/every webapp ever is beating us (meaning the FOSS OS community, i.e. Linux) on mindshare. (You could implement this different ways, but I'm imagining that once you friend someone they can see a select subset of posts on your computer. For me that would be status posts, some photos, some WIP code, etc. This would be a huge deal. Think about how many webapps it would make unnecessary.) EDIT: Less flowery sentences.
- tremon 11y ago
  I didn't mean to imply that was a bad idea. I meant that you provided no details on how it could be implemented or secured. That's more than just an implementation detail to me. For example, your code as shown implies that you can reach your friend's computer through an Internet name (through dns even?). That already assumes that these non-technical friends can register their own Internet names, and care enough to do so. But that assumption is well outside the bounds of "unix sucks".