5 ms·

When I took a test drive of the Model S recently, one thing that struck me about the autopilot was that it's not (in my opinion) sufficiently clear what mode th

by Udo 11y ago

When I took a test drive of the Model S recently, one thing that struck me about the autopilot was that it's not (in my opinion) sufficiently clear what mode the car is operating in at the moment. Semiautomatic mode should be a glaringly obvious UI change, but instead it's just an icon. It reminds me of certain fatal plane crashes that led to improvements in cockpit layout and operation. Are we about to make the same mistakes with cars?

dkbrk 11y ago
In particular, I think Aeroflot Flight 593 [0] is representative of this sort of problem. Autopilot control of the ailerons was accidentally disabled without clear feedback of the change in mode, this led to overcorrection by the autopilot using other control mechanisms as it attempted to restore the aircraft's heading and within a minute the plane entered an uncontrolled dive and crashed. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593
- akira2501 11y ago
  This is an old video, but I love watching these airline pilot saftey presentations. This video in particular covers a lot of these automation issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10
bsaul 11y ago
Your comment made me realize it would be a great idea to provide external signs as well, showing to people outside that the car is operating in autonomous mode. It could be lights for examples, a bit like when the car is going to move backward, only less powerful and with a different color. This should also be standardized in a way across manufacturers.
- cromulent 11y ago
  Absolutely. I would suggest that cars have two other standardised lights in addition to turn signals: a) Brake light on the front of the car So that when you turn across traffic on a yellow light you can see that the oncoming car is braking. b) Thank-you light on the back of a car. Maybe blue. We can already express displeasure, but wouldn't it be nice to express pleasure with other road users.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    > b) Thank-you light on the back of a car. Maybe blue. I still wonder why those aren't popular: http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/d138/ http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/d138/ Is there a regulatory reason against placing something like it behind your rear windshield?
    - joosters 11y ago
      If not regulatory, then it's certainly a cultural thing. Many cars and buses in parts of the middle east (certainly Iran, Syria and Egypt, but my memory has blurred which countries in particular, it was some years ago) had some crazy extra lights in their rear windows.
    - protomyth 11y ago
      As it says, it violates a few state laws. Mostly, it is seen as a distraction to the driving of others.
    - sandworm101 11y ago
      Blue in most jurisdictions is reserved for the police. Police are red-white-blue but often just red-blue, fire/ambulance are red/white and service vehicles are yellow. I wonder if anyone here knows what purple lights are reserved for? A purple light on a car is thing all drivers are meant to know.
      - TeMPOraL 11y ago
        > I wonder if anyone here knows what purple lights are reserved for? A purple light on a car is thing all drivers are meant to know. Apparently for anything, from funeral service to escorting oversized vehicles to HAZMAT response to whatever you feel like - depending on which country you live in :). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_vehicle_lighting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_vehicle_lighting
  - drglitch 11y ago
    a) brake lights - at least of same color - in front will not happen - because you instinctively know - especially in poor visibility) to follow red lights and avoid the bright white ones - which is oncoming traffic... b) in most of europe the thank you is done with a momentary press of the hazard button - thats why its generally so easy to access on most european-targeted cars.
- joosters 11y ago
  Why? As a driver of another car, what exactly am I expected to do when I see a car in some kind of autonomous mode? It's not like reversing lights or turn indicators, which give a hint about what the driver is about to do. If the 'autonomous mode lights' are meant to be some kind of warning, then that's just telling me that an autonomous mode isn't fit for real world use yet.
  - Symmetry 11y ago
    Currently manufacturers feel that they need to have their cards obey the law in every case, which is what people need to be warned about.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - fit2rule 11y ago
    >It's not like reversing lights or turn indicators, which give a hint about what the driver is about to do. On the contrary, such an indication would be precisely a hint to other drivers as to what sort of behavior one should expect from the auto-driving car. I'd be quite a lot happier with the concept of autonomous automobiles if they'd just communicate better, personally .. like, autonomous cars should be publicly trackable with an open information network, imho .. so we, the public, can know when we are not dealing with a human but rather a machine, in life-critical situations.
    - ghaff 11y ago
      >a hint to other drivers as to what sort of behavior one should expect The point is--what behavior is that? If I saw such an indicator today, I'd have no idea what I should be expecting that's different from normal. Is it like a student driver sign (i.e. who knows what this car is about to do)? Then it probably shouldn't be allowed.
      - Consultant32452 11y ago
- dwd 11y ago
  Like the idea - maybe like a learner or probabtionary driver who has to display their L or P plates to indicate they are not fully competent.
ryanmonroe 11y ago
I think it's just as clear as the typical cruise control indicator, and the failure to notice that has similarly serious consequences (If you think cruise control is off when it's on you're likely to hit something pretty quickly).
mikeash 11y ago
The major indicator is that the wheel becomes quite stiff and resists turning it. The next one is the sound it makes when engaging. The icon is relatively secondary.
- vsl 11y ago
  And, crucially, disengaging - with a beep if you have hands on wheel and a panicky "crash imminent, we're all going to die, do something!" series of beeps if you don't. Being aware of the car's mode is not an issue.

by Udo 11y ago

dkbrk 11y ago

In particular, I think Aeroflot Flight 593 [0] is representative of this sort of problem. Autopilot control of the ailerons was accidentally disabled without clear feedback of the change in mode, this led to overcorrection by the autopilot using other control mechanisms as it attempted to restore the aircraft's heading and within a minute the plane entered an uncontrolled dive and crashed. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593

akira2501 11y ago
This is an old video, but I love watching these airline pilot saftey presentations. This video in particular covers a lot of these automation issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10

bsaul 11y ago

Your comment made me realize it would be a great idea to provide external signs as well, showing to people outside that the car is operating in autonomous mode. It could be lights for examples, a bit like when the car is going to move backward, only less powerful and with a different color. This should also be standardized in a way across manufacturers.

cromulent 11y ago
Absolutely. I would suggest that cars have two other standardised lights in addition to turn signals: a) Brake light on the front of the car So that when you turn across traffic on a yellow light you can see that the oncoming car is braking. b) Thank-you light on the back of a car. Maybe blue. We can already express displeasure, but wouldn't it be nice to express pleasure with other road users.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  > b) Thank-you light on the back of a car. Maybe blue. I still wonder why those aren't popular: http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/d138/ http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/d138/ Is there a regulatory reason against placing something like it behind your rear windshield?
  - joosters 11y ago
    If not regulatory, then it's certainly a cultural thing. Many cars and buses in parts of the middle east (certainly Iran, Syria and Egypt, but my memory has blurred which countries in particular, it was some years ago) had some crazy extra lights in their rear windows.
  - protomyth 11y ago
    As it says, it violates a few state laws. Mostly, it is seen as a distraction to the driving of others.
  - sandworm101 11y ago
    Blue in most jurisdictions is reserved for the police. Police are red-white-blue but often just red-blue, fire/ambulance are red/white and service vehicles are yellow. I wonder if anyone here knows what purple lights are reserved for? A purple light on a car is thing all drivers are meant to know.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      > I wonder if anyone here knows what purple lights are reserved for? A purple light on a car is thing all drivers are meant to know. Apparently for anything, from funeral service to escorting oversized vehicles to HAZMAT response to whatever you feel like - depending on which country you live in :). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_vehicle_lighting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_vehicle_lighting
- drglitch 11y ago
  a) brake lights - at least of same color - in front will not happen - because you instinctively know - especially in poor visibility) to follow red lights and avoid the bright white ones - which is oncoming traffic... b) in most of europe the thank you is done with a momentary press of the hazard button - thats why its generally so easy to access on most european-targeted cars.
joosters 11y ago
Why? As a driver of another car, what exactly am I expected to do when I see a car in some kind of autonomous mode? It's not like reversing lights or turn indicators, which give a hint about what the driver is about to do. If the 'autonomous mode lights' are meant to be some kind of warning, then that's just telling me that an autonomous mode isn't fit for real world use yet.
- Symmetry 11y ago
  Currently manufacturers feel that they need to have their cards obey the law in every case, which is what people need to be warned about.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- fit2rule 11y ago
  >It's not like reversing lights or turn indicators, which give a hint about what the driver is about to do. On the contrary, such an indication would be precisely a hint to other drivers as to what sort of behavior one should expect from the auto-driving car. I'd be quite a lot happier with the concept of autonomous automobiles if they'd just communicate better, personally .. like, autonomous cars should be publicly trackable with an open information network, imho .. so we, the public, can know when we are not dealing with a human but rather a machine, in life-critical situations.
  - ghaff 11y ago
    >a hint to other drivers as to what sort of behavior one should expect The point is--what behavior is that? If I saw such an indicator today, I'd have no idea what I should be expecting that's different from normal. Is it like a student driver sign (i.e. who knows what this car is about to do)? Then it probably shouldn't be allowed.
    - Consultant32452 11y ago
dwd 11y ago
Like the idea - maybe like a learner or probabtionary driver who has to display their L or P plates to indicate they are not fully competent.

ryanmonroe 11y ago

I think it's just as clear as the typical cruise control indicator, and the failure to notice that has similarly serious consequences (If you think cruise control is off when it's on you're likely to hit something pretty quickly).

mikeash 11y ago

The major indicator is that the wheel becomes quite stiff and resists turning it. The next one is the sound it makes when engaging. The icon is relatively secondary.

vsl 11y ago
And, crucially, disengaging - with a beep if you have hands on wheel and a panicky "crash imminent, we're all going to die, do something!" series of beeps if you don't. Being aware of the car's mode is not an issue.