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If there is a new upper class today, their oppression doesn't seem all that severe. I don't recall the former nobility handing our free health care or education

If there is a new upper class today, their oppression doesn't seem all that severe. I don't recall the former nobility handing our free health care or education. Sure, the people in power today believe they deserve what they have, but so did the people in power before. If you're worried about that sort of arrogance, at least we don't have kings believing they rule by divine right and nobility believing they're carrying out God's will through their king.

fucking_tragedy 11y ago
> I don't recall the former nobility handing our free health care or education. Don't be fooled. Those things only exist because the people have an avenue of influence through the government. Typically, people had to die in their fight for concessions and recognition of rights from the upper classes. Both state sponsored healthcare and public education are actively fought against by the rich.
- nitwit005 11y ago
  Honestly, I doubt that. Even if you arbitrarily removed all voting power from the poor in the UK today, you'd still have public schools and some form of public health a decade later. Those ideas are quite popular even among the wealthy. If you look back, you'll see public education became a thing partly because the wealthy pushed for it. They understood they would benefit.
  - fucking_tragedy 11y ago
    Look at the US. Public school funding is being gutted in favor of vouchers or charter schools.
    - nitwit005 11y ago
      That's still handing out free education. They have political beliefs about that approach providing better results, but it's not as-if they want to scrap the idea of government funded education.
      - cmurf 11y ago
        College education isn't free in the U.S. There isn't enough capacity for everyone who wants to go to college, to actually get to go to college. Those too poor to afford it, have to compete amongst each other for limited grants and low cost loans. Those rich enough, pay cash. Everyone else gets a loan.
        nitwit005 11y ago
        Or, stated more positively, the government gives the poor subsidized loans so they can go university. I'm not really seeing heavy handed oppression by a cruel upper crust.
        cmurf 11y ago
        No that's not true, not everyone who wants to go gets to go. Why bother being overtly oppressive when the vast majority go into massive debt to get a college education, enriching banks in the process; while the upper crust use pocket change to get the same because, afterall, their family is so deserving of this merit.
        nitwit005 11y ago
        I didn't say everyone who wants to go gets to go did I? I just re-stated things positively. Guaranteeing that debt costs the US government quite a bit of money, which means there is an overall transfer of wealth from rich to poor through taxes. Again, it seems more like this has to do with American political ideas, rather than not wanting the poor to be educated. Incidentally, it would appear that you are out of date, as they started lending directly in 2010, instead of lending through banks.
michaelmrose 11y ago
They don't want to hand out either health care or education.
msolujic 11y ago
> If you're worried about that sort of arrogance, at least we don't have kings believing they rule by divine right and nobility believing they're carrying out God's will through their king. Honestly there is no much actual difference for those who are not in privileged position. They don't care what kind of story people above keep saying to justify their status. I'm not convinced that new rationalization of why someone is 'chosen' is any better than old fashioned 'god-will' way.

fucking_tragedy 11y ago

> I don't recall the former nobility handing our free health care or education. Don't be fooled. Those things only exist because the people have an avenue of influence through the government. Typically, people had to die in their fight for concessions and recognition of rights from the upper classes. Both state sponsored healthcare and public education are actively fought against by the rich.

nitwit005 11y ago
Honestly, I doubt that. Even if you arbitrarily removed all voting power from the poor in the UK today, you'd still have public schools and some form of public health a decade later. Those ideas are quite popular even among the wealthy. If you look back, you'll see public education became a thing partly because the wealthy pushed for it. They understood they would benefit.
- fucking_tragedy 11y ago
  Look at the US. Public school funding is being gutted in favor of vouchers or charter schools.
  - nitwit005 11y ago
    That's still handing out free education. They have political beliefs about that approach providing better results, but it's not as-if they want to scrap the idea of government funded education.
    - cmurf 11y ago
      College education isn't free in the U.S. There isn't enough capacity for everyone who wants to go to college, to actually get to go to college. Those too poor to afford it, have to compete amongst each other for limited grants and low cost loans. Those rich enough, pay cash. Everyone else gets a loan.
      - nitwit005 11y ago
        Or, stated more positively, the government gives the poor subsidized loans so they can go university. I'm not really seeing heavy handed oppression by a cruel upper crust.
        cmurf 11y ago
        No that's not true, not everyone who wants to go gets to go. Why bother being overtly oppressive when the vast majority go into massive debt to get a college education, enriching banks in the process; while the upper crust use pocket change to get the same because, afterall, their family is so deserving of this merit.
        nitwit005 11y ago
        I didn't say everyone who wants to go gets to go did I? I just re-stated things positively. Guaranteeing that debt costs the US government quite a bit of money, which means there is an overall transfer of wealth from rich to poor through taxes. Again, it seems more like this has to do with American political ideas, rather than not wanting the poor to be educated. Incidentally, it would appear that you are out of date, as they started lending directly in 2010, instead of lending through banks.

michaelmrose 11y ago

They don't want to hand out either health care or education.

msolujic 11y ago

> If you're worried about that sort of arrogance, at least we don't have kings believing they rule by divine right and nobility believing they're carrying out God's will through their king. Honestly there is no much actual difference for those who are not in privileged position. They don't care what kind of story people above keep saying to justify their status. I'm not convinced that new rationalization of why someone is 'chosen' is any better than old fashioned 'god-will' way.