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Oh, my god. I've read about this before but that link really drove the point home. What a dystopia we're headed for if this works out well for China, and there

by rashkov 11y ago

Oh, my god. I've read about this before but that link really drove the point home. What a dystopia we're headed for if this works out well for China, and there is every reason to believe that it could. Thanks for sharing that

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
Oh its ok for corporations in the USA to do this to control purchasing and marketing. But do it for some actual societal good and suddenly its (more) evil? I'm of two minds on this one. Gamification works in lots of arenas (from pizza coupons to annual reviews). Why not social/public morals?
- rashkov 11y ago
  I'm not sure how you can watch the parent's youtube link and still compare the two. They are in different leagues altogether, in my opinion, so I'm finding it hard to relate to your comment. I think it's also pretty hard to define "social/public morals" in a way that is agreeable to most people. Would not linking to tiananmen square, or discussing China's stock market slide be a public good? Are you really comfortable with that kind of censorship?
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Remember people are not mindless drones. These games are there to let you know how you're expected to behave (like tax incentives, street signs etc). This is different, sure. But not unprecedented.
    - rashkov 11y ago
      What's different, however, is the level of coordinated surveillance that enables this scheme, as well as the centralized power of coercion that the state yields. Ad-tech companies, financials, silicon valley data silos, surveillance bodies, and most importantly the government are not legally able to coordinate on a level that would allow let them baldly track your purchasing history, your social media presence, as well as your private communications and then assign you an aggregate score! Besides the legal separation issues, their interests aren't nearly as aligned with each other as in the case of China so there are some checks and balances. Then to take that aggregate score and further coerce you by making loans scarce or jobs unavailable is a whole other level. What we're talking about is a totalitarian system of control over the population. Tweaked and targeted on an extremely personal level, and leveraging social pressure and shame. Say what you will about the malevolence of the US government and our capitalistic system but it is simply incapable of this scale of totalitarianism.
      - samstave 11y ago
        100% 1984 on steroids! It's nuts - and this is what people should revolt against. Fight club was a documentary :-)

by rashkov 11y ago

JoeAltmaier 11y ago

Oh its ok for corporations in the USA to do this to control purchasing and marketing. But do it for some actual societal good and suddenly its (more) evil? I'm of two minds on this one. Gamification works in lots of arenas (from pizza coupons to annual reviews). Why not social/public morals?

rashkov 11y ago
I'm not sure how you can watch the parent's youtube link and still compare the two. They are in different leagues altogether, in my opinion, so I'm finding it hard to relate to your comment. I think it's also pretty hard to define "social/public morals" in a way that is agreeable to most people. Would not linking to tiananmen square, or discussing China's stock market slide be a public good? Are you really comfortable with that kind of censorship?
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Remember people are not mindless drones. These games are there to let you know how you're expected to behave (like tax incentives, street signs etc). This is different, sure. But not unprecedented.
  - rashkov 11y ago
    What's different, however, is the level of coordinated surveillance that enables this scheme, as well as the centralized power of coercion that the state yields. Ad-tech companies, financials, silicon valley data silos, surveillance bodies, and most importantly the government are not legally able to coordinate on a level that would allow let them baldly track your purchasing history, your social media presence, as well as your private communications and then assign you an aggregate score! Besides the legal separation issues, their interests aren't nearly as aligned with each other as in the case of China so there are some checks and balances. Then to take that aggregate score and further coerce you by making loans scarce or jobs unavailable is a whole other level. What we're talking about is a totalitarian system of control over the population. Tweaked and targeted on an extremely personal level, and leveraging social pressure and shame. Say what you will about the malevolence of the US government and our capitalistic system but it is simply incapable of this scale of totalitarianism.
    - samstave 11y ago
      100% 1984 on steroids! It's nuts - and this is what people should revolt against. Fight club was a documentary :-)