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Maybe we shouldn't consider such people adults, then. Often times developmentally disabled children reach "adulthood" but are still considered incompetent and r

Maybe we shouldn't consider such people adults, then. Often times developmentally disabled children reach "adulthood" but are still considered incompetent and require guardianship.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
Yay, thanks :). I'll be recruiting competent guardians for myself then. CVs welcome. Mail is in the profile. ;). Seriously though. Often the part of living with depression is keeping up appearances, so that you don't get labeled by friends and relatives as a childish adult. For some reason, many people tend to switch to a condescending attitude then, and this is very much not helping the depressed person.
- x3n0ph3n3 11y ago
  Children growing up also don't like people condescending and treating them as the children they are. If a child puts on the appearance of being an adult, should we treat them as such and give them the rights and responsibilities of being an adult?
  - thatcat 11y ago
    treating a child like an adult can lead to them acting like an adult and accepting responsibilities they otherwise would not, where as condescension re-enforces their role as a child
    - johnchristopher 11y ago
      I believe we should not. Children are not yet able emotionally to handle `adults' problems and situations all of a sudden. It doesn't leave them any space to experience good and bad things and grow up. Getting that label at an early age could prevent them of reaping the benefits of growing up and developing as a child, in the emotional and physical space that is usually reserved to children. That's what should make them into `adults'. It's like the debate about praising children for their innate abilities (let's say: intelligence) and behaviour (let's say: trying many times to solve a math problem even if they fail at first): the first approach put them in a fixed mindset while the second ease them into the idea that they can try, blunder and try again and that's what makes them getting better (not an innate ability).
- mercer 11y ago
  This is the reason why I've always gravitated towards friends who were aware of their own weaknesses, open about them, and open to leaning on others for support when they needed it. In practice these were often people who suffered from some kind of disability, mental or physical, or were in some kind of minority (gay, ethnic minority, etc.). They had to swallow their pride, they had to stop pretending that they had all their shit together, and they had to learn to give others a break as well. These friends showed empathy and understanding, while my 'normal' friends, at best, could only produce sympathy (which is still good, but not the same). And in some cases the response was pity, or worse, and thankfully very rarely, condescension. One of the nice things I've been learning as I'm getting older and as I'm becoming less attached to 'status' and ego, is that I'm realizing how true it is that there's strength in weakness. When I get to know new people, I often force myself to be open about my particular weakness or struggles (without complaint generally), and almost every time this provides an opening for them to share theirs. Regularly, at the end of a long conversation, they'll tell me that they feel unburdened and that they've never or rarely told anyone about their struggles. And for me, that makes it easier to deal with what I'm dealing with, because it feels like it's not pointless. (btw, I noticed your username popping up quite often in relation to a comment that is, at the very least, thoughtful and interesting. I just wanted to mention that :))
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    A great observation, thanks for sharing! I noticed something similar about my choice of friends - the people I consider the best as friends, or people in general, are usually those who come from a somewhat broken environment. Not broken enough to seriously damage them, but broken enough that it gave them extra capacity for showing empathy and understanding. (Ok, with maybe one exception - I used to be friends with a girl who had absolutely perfect, loving family with both parents present, happy and caring. I actually cringe when I think about it, because a family like this seems just... impossible. But it is, and it shaped her to be an extremely positive, caring and empathetic person.) There's an urban legend / unverified statistic that I hear in my country every now and then - not in media, but from people. It says that about half of the population is actually visiting psychologists, but people are mostly ashamed of telling anyone to avoid being labeled as crazy. My mother also likes to add that "back in communist times, we used to watch Western movies and laugh at Americans for having to spend money on shrinks". Guess what we're all doing right now. What it teaches me is that everyone is broken in some way. We all have problems, the world is too complex to deal with. Opening up about it instead of trying to boost your ego by laughing at others can let us connect more strongly together, just in the way you described. We're all in this shit together, so why not help each other instead of keeping each other down? > (btw, I noticed your username popping up quite often in relation to a comment that is, at the very least, thoughtful and interesting. I just wanted to mention that :)) Thanks for the kind words :). I try. I can say for sure that Hacker News has taught me a lot about not just writing insightful things, but thinking insightful thoughts. That's why I love hanging out here :).
johnchristopher 11y ago
Still, I believe the spectrum going from developmentally disabled to depression (or OCD for instance) is too wide to put every member of the set under the incompetent label.
- x3n0ph3n3 11y ago
  You provided a scenario where the mental illness hampers their ability to be an adult. Those with a mental illness that doesn't hamper their ability are necessarily excluded from that categorization.
  - johnchristopher 11y ago
    But some of those mental illness are treatable (depression, OCD, etc.) and the individual can get back to `functional' once `treated'. But in the crux of the battle against the illness they are not able to function properly: should they temporary be unlabeled ? (I think so, but what does it imply regarding responsibilities ? How can one be responsible for his healing if the very disease they have make them not seek relief ?). I believe labels come and go according to circumstances.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Lack of capacity is narrowly defined. So, a person may be able to make decisions about who they have sex with, but not able to look after their finances.

Maybe we shouldn't consider such people adults, then. Often times developmentally disabled children reach "adulthood" but are still considered incompetent and require guardianship.

TeMPOraL 11y ago

Yay, thanks :). I'll be recruiting competent guardians for myself then. CVs welcome. Mail is in the profile. ;). Seriously though. Often the part of living with depression is keeping up appearances, so that you don't get labeled by friends and relatives as a childish adult. For some reason, many people tend to switch to a condescending attitude then, and this is very much not helping the depressed person.

x3n0ph3n3 11y ago
Children growing up also don't like people condescending and treating them as the children they are. If a child puts on the appearance of being an adult, should we treat them as such and give them the rights and responsibilities of being an adult?
- thatcat 11y ago
  treating a child like an adult can lead to them acting like an adult and accepting responsibilities they otherwise would not, where as condescension re-enforces their role as a child
  - johnchristopher 11y ago
    I believe we should not. Children are not yet able emotionally to handle `adults' problems and situations all of a sudden. It doesn't leave them any space to experience good and bad things and grow up. Getting that label at an early age could prevent them of reaping the benefits of growing up and developing as a child, in the emotional and physical space that is usually reserved to children. That's what should make them into `adults'. It's like the debate about praising children for their innate abilities (let's say: intelligence) and behaviour (let's say: trying many times to solve a math problem even if they fail at first): the first approach put them in a fixed mindset while the second ease them into the idea that they can try, blunder and try again and that's what makes them getting better (not an innate ability).
mercer 11y ago
This is the reason why I've always gravitated towards friends who were aware of their own weaknesses, open about them, and open to leaning on others for support when they needed it. In practice these were often people who suffered from some kind of disability, mental or physical, or were in some kind of minority (gay, ethnic minority, etc.). They had to swallow their pride, they had to stop pretending that they had all their shit together, and they had to learn to give others a break as well. These friends showed empathy and understanding, while my 'normal' friends, at best, could only produce sympathy (which is still good, but not the same). And in some cases the response was pity, or worse, and thankfully very rarely, condescension. One of the nice things I've been learning as I'm getting older and as I'm becoming less attached to 'status' and ego, is that I'm realizing how true it is that there's strength in weakness. When I get to know new people, I often force myself to be open about my particular weakness or struggles (without complaint generally), and almost every time this provides an opening for them to share theirs. Regularly, at the end of a long conversation, they'll tell me that they feel unburdened and that they've never or rarely told anyone about their struggles. And for me, that makes it easier to deal with what I'm dealing with, because it feels like it's not pointless. (btw, I noticed your username popping up quite often in relation to a comment that is, at the very least, thoughtful and interesting. I just wanted to mention that :))
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  A great observation, thanks for sharing! I noticed something similar about my choice of friends - the people I consider the best as friends, or people in general, are usually those who come from a somewhat broken environment. Not broken enough to seriously damage them, but broken enough that it gave them extra capacity for showing empathy and understanding. (Ok, with maybe one exception - I used to be friends with a girl who had absolutely perfect, loving family with both parents present, happy and caring. I actually cringe when I think about it, because a family like this seems just... impossible. But it is, and it shaped her to be an extremely positive, caring and empathetic person.) There's an urban legend / unverified statistic that I hear in my country every now and then - not in media, but from people. It says that about half of the population is actually visiting psychologists, but people are mostly ashamed of telling anyone to avoid being labeled as crazy. My mother also likes to add that "back in communist times, we used to watch Western movies and laugh at Americans for having to spend money on shrinks". Guess what we're all doing right now. What it teaches me is that everyone is broken in some way. We all have problems, the world is too complex to deal with. Opening up about it instead of trying to boost your ego by laughing at others can let us connect more strongly together, just in the way you described. We're all in this shit together, so why not help each other instead of keeping each other down? > (btw, I noticed your username popping up quite often in relation to a comment that is, at the very least, thoughtful and interesting. I just wanted to mention that :)) Thanks for the kind words :). I try. I can say for sure that Hacker News has taught me a lot about not just writing insightful things, but thinking insightful thoughts. That's why I love hanging out here :).

johnchristopher 11y ago

Still, I believe the spectrum going from developmentally disabled to depression (or OCD for instance) is too wide to put every member of the set under the incompetent label.

x3n0ph3n3 11y ago
You provided a scenario where the mental illness hampers their ability to be an adult. Those with a mental illness that doesn't hamper their ability are necessarily excluded from that categorization.
- johnchristopher 11y ago
  But some of those mental illness are treatable (depression, OCD, etc.) and the individual can get back to `functional' once `treated'. But in the crux of the battle against the illness they are not able to function properly: should they temporary be unlabeled ? (I think so, but what does it imply regarding responsibilities ? How can one be responsible for his healing if the very disease they have make them not seek relief ?). I believe labels come and go according to circumstances.
- DanBC 11y ago
  Lack of capacity is narrowly defined. So, a person may be able to make decisions about who they have sex with, but not able to look after their finances.