3 ms·

Lots of things probably won't work very well at the state level, but might nationally. Consider what could happen if just a single state offered universal basic

by ashark 11y ago

Lots of things probably won't work very well at the state level, but might nationally. Consider what could happen if just a single state offered universal basic income, for instance.

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
That's a good point. I find it hard to imagine the system not straining after a while within a single state. Perhaps as a reach I could offer Massachusetts and its model health care system as an example. It's a high tax state with a great health care system right next to an extremely low tax state (New Hampshire). Many people who live in MA travel to NH to shop without sales tax, but very few who work in MA live in NH. So if MA instituted basic income, it might have the effect of bringing people to the state to live off the dole, but things are expensive there and some might find it easier to either work to have a higher standard of living than one with the basic dignities of food and shelter, or some people will commute from neighboring states. UBI has been experimented with in many locations, from Canada to Namibia, and they often showed the same effect: some people dropped out of the labor force, others did so but to be homemakers, volunteers, and so on, and for many of the rest, their incomes improved because they had a reliable safety net and worked to increase their earnings so they could live better, as we all do. We can consider till the cows come home, but people have put up with debate for too long. They need action.
jerf 11y ago
"Consider what could happen if just a single state offered universal basic income, for instance." Roughly the same thing as one country that offers universal basic income but doesn't control its borders, for the exact same reason? Also, UBI isn't magic. If it would not work in a state individually, it does not become practical by banding 50 states it doesn't work in together. In fact, with the size of most US states, that's just generally true; it is not possible for something to not work in a state due to resource contraints but suddenly become possible when 50 insufficiently-resourced states band together.
- rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
  I know I'm contradicting my previous point, but a federal program would inhibit tax-paying citizens and corporations from moving to the most convenient nearby location to do the same business but for cheap. One example to look at would be the cities of Portland, Oregon, and Vancouver, Washington. A lot of people choose to live in Vancouver because Washington has no income tax and spend their time and money in Portland, which has no sales tax. So one could argue that the insufficient resources of a state are a function of the expected tax base exodus if it is cheaper to move and keep doing business than to stay and pay.
  - selimthegrim 11y ago
    They also spend their time and money in Portland because Vancouver is a hole. And I used to live in St. Johns (AKA Tweakville) so I know whereof I speak.
paulpauper 11y ago
Entitlement spending is so high that it almost acts like a UBI. http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/infographics/2014/12/CP-Federal-Spending-by-the-Numbers-2014-08-1-anti-poverty_HIGHRES.jpg http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/infographics/2014/12/CP-Fe... The lowest quintile of households have a negative effective tax rate.http://krusekronicle.typepad.com/kruse_kronicle/images/2008/03/01/totaleffectivetax.gif http://krusekronicle.typepad.com/kruse_kronicle/images/2008/... A UBI without preconditions would just compound existing spending.
drjesusphd 11y ago
Single nations and even single cities in the EU are adopting universal income as we speak. I'm sure they found a credible (though perhaps not not guaranteed) way to make it work. In any case, we can learn from their experience.

by ashark 11y ago

Lots of things probably won't work very well at the state level, but might nationally. Consider what could happen if just a single state offered universal basic income, for instance.

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago

That's a good point. I find it hard to imagine the system not straining after a while within a single state. Perhaps as a reach I could offer Massachusetts and its model health care system as an example. It's a high tax state with a great health care system right next to an extremely low tax state (New Hampshire). Many people who live in MA travel to NH to shop without sales tax, but very few who work in MA live in NH. So if MA instituted basic income, it might have the effect of bringing people to the state to live off the dole, but things are expensive there and some might find it easier to either work to have a higher standard of living than one with the basic dignities of food and shelter, or some people will commute from neighboring states. UBI has been experimented with in many locations, from Canada to Namibia, and they often showed the same effect: some people dropped out of the labor force, others did so but to be homemakers, volunteers, and so on, and for many of the rest, their incomes improved because they had a reliable safety net and worked to increase their earnings so they could live better, as we all do. We can consider till the cows come home, but people have put up with debate for too long. They need action.

jerf 11y ago

"Consider what could happen if just a single state offered universal basic income, for instance." Roughly the same thing as one country that offers universal basic income but doesn't control its borders, for the exact same reason? Also, UBI isn't magic. If it would not work in a state individually, it does not become practical by banding 50 states it doesn't work in together. In fact, with the size of most US states, that's just generally true; it is not possible for something to not work in a state due to resource contraints but suddenly become possible when 50 insufficiently-resourced states band together.

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
I know I'm contradicting my previous point, but a federal program would inhibit tax-paying citizens and corporations from moving to the most convenient nearby location to do the same business but for cheap. One example to look at would be the cities of Portland, Oregon, and Vancouver, Washington. A lot of people choose to live in Vancouver because Washington has no income tax and spend their time and money in Portland, which has no sales tax. So one could argue that the insufficient resources of a state are a function of the expected tax base exodus if it is cheaper to move and keep doing business than to stay and pay.
- selimthegrim 11y ago
  They also spend their time and money in Portland because Vancouver is a hole. And I used to live in St. Johns (AKA Tweakville) so I know whereof I speak.

paulpauper 11y ago

Entitlement spending is so high that it almost acts like a UBI. http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/infographics/2014/12/CP-Federal-Spending-by-the-Numbers-2014-08-1-anti-poverty_HIGHRES.jpg http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/infographics/2014/12/CP-Fe... The lowest quintile of households have a negative effective tax rate.http://krusekronicle.typepad.com/kruse_kronicle/images/2008/03/01/totaleffectivetax.gif http://krusekronicle.typepad.com/kruse_kronicle/images/2008/... A UBI without preconditions would just compound existing spending.

drjesusphd 11y ago

Single nations and even single cities in the EU are adopting universal income as we speak. I'm sure they found a credible (though perhaps not not guaranteed) way to make it work. In any case, we can learn from their experience.