2 ms·

The indeterminacy may not be real. It's just that you don't know the state. I don't believe there is a rule that says you get to know everything.

tbabb 11y ago
Are you proposing a "hidden state" which is unobservable? Such a formulation is not consistent with quantum mechanics, as proven by Bell's theorem, unless you permit instantaneous influence from arbitrarily distant parts of the universe.
- jarin 11y ago
  Put another way, aside from the possible "instantaneous influence" exception above, there are no "hidden variables" or mechanisms under the surface that we just haven't figured out yet. At that level it is truly probabilistic.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  I'm saying that the construction "indeterminate" is only a statement about the knowledge of the person making the statement. Are you proposing that the universe doesn't act unless you are considering it?
  - tbabb 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem Certain observations are probabilistic, and the correlations in them predicted by quantum mechanics cannot be reproduced by ascribing them to the traits of particles. It means that at the lowest level, the universe is (barring faster-than-light communication, generally regarded to be false) "truly random". (No concept of an "observer" needs to be devised in order to arrive at this conclusion).
    - Houshalter 11y ago
      How do you know it's truly random though? Couldn't it be the result of a pseudo random process? Or universe splitting, where two universes are created, one where a coin lands head, and one where it lands tails. To the people inside, it seems random, but it's actually deterministic.
      - tbabb 11y ago
        Pseudorandom means the choice is deterministically chosen by according to the state of hidden variables. Bell's theorem says there are no hidden variables that completely explain the predictions of quantum mechanics. A many-worlds interpretation (which is consistent with QM) is basically the same as saying the result is random, because you can't predict exactly which branch any particular interaction will follow.
        guscost 11y ago
        No local hidden variables. Hugely important distinction.
        tbabb 11y ago
        Yes, see the bit in my original post and the one that follows about instantaneous communication.
    - jsprogrammer 11y ago
      Yes. This is a known result. If you want to talk about "truly random", please say more. Some theories rule out what you may be calling "truly random".
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]

tbabb 11y ago

Are you proposing a "hidden state" which is unobservable? Such a formulation is not consistent with quantum mechanics, as proven by Bell's theorem, unless you permit instantaneous influence from arbitrarily distant parts of the universe.

jarin 11y ago
Put another way, aside from the possible "instantaneous influence" exception above, there are no "hidden variables" or mechanisms under the surface that we just haven't figured out yet. At that level it is truly probabilistic.
jsprogrammer 11y ago
I'm saying that the construction "indeterminate" is only a statement about the knowledge of the person making the statement. Are you proposing that the universe doesn't act unless you are considering it?
- tbabb 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem Certain observations are probabilistic, and the correlations in them predicted by quantum mechanics cannot be reproduced by ascribing them to the traits of particles. It means that at the lowest level, the universe is (barring faster-than-light communication, generally regarded to be false) "truly random". (No concept of an "observer" needs to be devised in order to arrive at this conclusion).
  - Houshalter 11y ago
    How do you know it's truly random though? Couldn't it be the result of a pseudo random process? Or universe splitting, where two universes are created, one where a coin lands head, and one where it lands tails. To the people inside, it seems random, but it's actually deterministic.
    - tbabb 11y ago
      Pseudorandom means the choice is deterministically chosen by according to the state of hidden variables. Bell's theorem says there are no hidden variables that completely explain the predictions of quantum mechanics. A many-worlds interpretation (which is consistent with QM) is basically the same as saying the result is random, because you can't predict exactly which branch any particular interaction will follow.
      - guscost 11y ago
        No local hidden variables. Hugely important distinction.
        tbabb 11y ago
        Yes, see the bit in my original post and the one that follows about instantaneous communication.
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    Yes. This is a known result. If you want to talk about "truly random", please say more. Some theories rule out what you may be calling "truly random".
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]