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This is a really disingenuous response. The NV Energy (all power utilities in the US) receive massive subsidies. So the playing field isn't level.

by ebbv 11y ago

tomp 11y ago
What kind of subsidies?
- roymurdock 11y ago
  This is a great report from 2012 (using 2010 numbers) that outlines gov subsidies, loans, and contracts by industry: http://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_assets/2012/ninesubsidyscopechartspdf.pdf http://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_as... Energy is the 5th most subsidized sector, counting both grants and tax expenditures (exemptions), with $34.5b in total federal subsidies. Compared to the $743.5b we subsidized healthcare, this is pretty small stuff. Energy makes up the 2nd largest share of direct federal loans at $48.4b, behind education at $87.8b: The energy sector contained the second largest number of loans, with $48.4 billion in loans, about half of the amount of education loans. These loans were administered by the U.S. Department of Energy to promote advanced technology vehicles and energy efficiency through innovative technologies and by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, for the purpose of improving electricity transmission in rural areas. The energy sector’s loans made up 31 percent of all loans in the nine sectors in FY2010. Good breakdown of competed vs non-competed contracts by sector as well, with transportation and national defense coming out on top in terms of nominal size of contracts as well as ratio non-compete to compete, unsurprisingly.
  - revelation 11y ago
    I'm afraid this is missing the point. The subsidies we are talking about when it comes to energy are not "cash in hand" loans to energy companies. It's the tacit approval of and ignorance towards externalities energy companies cause, mostly pollution in any number of forms, from those carcinogenic to those crushing the climate (CO2) and finally things like nuclear waste (and possibly decontamination) that will be with us for many thousand years to come. These massive costs are not being accounted for, and they sum up to subsidies vastly exceeding the puny $50b cited here.
    - roymurdock 11y ago
      We're in agreement here. Unfortunately, until we develop a serious pollution permitting scheme where companies can buy and sell pollution "credits" on a market with some max set and enforced by the government, we will be unable to capture these negative externalities in dollar form.
- ebbv 11y ago
  Are you kidding? Every kind imaginable, from subsidies for coal mining and oil to subsidies on natural gas, subsidies on upgrading for higher efficiency, etc. Not to mention the implicit subsidy of the rest of us picking up the tab for the damage they are doing to the environment. If you're really curious there's tons of information out there.
  - tomp 11y ago
    > Are you kidding? No, I was genuinely curious.

This is a really disingenuous response. The NV Energy (all power utilities in the US) receive massive subsidies. So the playing field isn't level.

by ebbv 11y ago

This is a really disingenuous response. The NV Energy (all power utilities in the US) receive massive subsidies. So the playing field isn't level.

tomp 11y ago

What kind of subsidies?

roymurdock 11y ago
This is a great report from 2012 (using 2010 numbers) that outlines gov subsidies, loans, and contracts by industry: http://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_assets/2012/ninesubsidyscopechartspdf.pdf http://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_as... Energy is the 5th most subsidized sector, counting both grants and tax expenditures (exemptions), with $34.5b in total federal subsidies. Compared to the $743.5b we subsidized healthcare, this is pretty small stuff. Energy makes up the 2nd largest share of direct federal loans at $48.4b, behind education at $87.8b: The energy sector contained the second largest number of loans, with $48.4 billion in loans, about half of the amount of education loans. These loans were administered by the U.S. Department of Energy to promote advanced technology vehicles and energy efficiency through innovative technologies and by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, for the purpose of improving electricity transmission in rural areas. The energy sector’s loans made up 31 percent of all loans in the nine sectors in FY2010. Good breakdown of competed vs non-competed contracts by sector as well, with transportation and national defense coming out on top in terms of nominal size of contracts as well as ratio non-compete to compete, unsurprisingly.
- revelation 11y ago
  I'm afraid this is missing the point. The subsidies we are talking about when it comes to energy are not "cash in hand" loans to energy companies. It's the tacit approval of and ignorance towards externalities energy companies cause, mostly pollution in any number of forms, from those carcinogenic to those crushing the climate (CO2) and finally things like nuclear waste (and possibly decontamination) that will be with us for many thousand years to come. These massive costs are not being accounted for, and they sum up to subsidies vastly exceeding the puny $50b cited here.
  - roymurdock 11y ago
    We're in agreement here. Unfortunately, until we develop a serious pollution permitting scheme where companies can buy and sell pollution "credits" on a market with some max set and enforced by the government, we will be unable to capture these negative externalities in dollar form.
ebbv 11y ago
Are you kidding? Every kind imaginable, from subsidies for coal mining and oil to subsidies on natural gas, subsidies on upgrading for higher efficiency, etc. Not to mention the implicit subsidy of the rest of us picking up the tab for the damage they are doing to the environment. If you're really curious there's tons of information out there.
- tomp 11y ago
  > Are you kidding? No, I was genuinely curious.