6 ms·

How the Tough Got Going in Kentucky

40 points by tomaskazemekas 11y ago

bjelkeman-again 11y ago
It is interesting with standing space for some of your work. I find that I can't stand and do certain types of work (I have a standing desk I use a lot). Writing which require assembling a lot of information into something coherent is really hard for me to do standing. I could imagine that maths would be the same, but I haven't tried it. If you then have a class room with only standing space, maybe that isn't great. But it could of course be the opposite, that standing works better.
- kwhitefoot 11y ago
  Office work and education are different things. I have a standing desk and I use it standing about half the time. I mostly design, write, and debug software and I can do it standing as easily as sitting. But I couldn't do that work effectively in the classroom described in Gates' article. On the other hand, when discussing new features and brainstorming radical changes then that classroom looks just like the conference rooms that we do use for that.
skywhopper 11y ago
The image comparing the classroom layout in 1915 vs 2015 is misleading, but also silly. The US educational system has served a lot of people very well throughout those 100 years using exactly that setup. Such rhetorical strategies drive me nuts. Lots of things are different, but change for change's sake is never a good idea.
- jmnicolas 11y ago
  What surprised me was how sad the children looked on the 1915 photo. Like they're in detention or something.
  - arethuza 11y ago
    There are cultural differences around smiling so its possible that they are trying to look serious and studious - assuming that the US attitude to smiling has changed over the years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smile#Cultural_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smile#Cultural_differences NB On my first visits to the US 20+ years ago I was surprised at how you would get big beaming smiles* from people for no apparent reason... but then again I'm from a notoriously dour part of a dour country. [*] I of course eventually realised that people were giving me big beaming smiles because they were paid to!.
    - WorldMaker 11y ago
      Certainly the US attitude towards smiling has changed with regards to camera technology. I'm too lazy to look up primary referents on the subject right now, but long shutter times encouraged people not to smile to avoid grotesque photos and then as shutter times got faster photographers began to eventually "mandate" smiles to prove that they had better cameras until eventually it was weird in the US not to smile in a planned photo.
  - thrownaway2424 11y ago
    Considering the picture was taken indoors, at night, with 1915 film technology, all of the people in the picture would have to hold perfectly still for several seconds. That might affect their countenance.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- t3f 11y ago
  I have to disagree a bit here. It's true that the system has worked for many people, but you can not tell me that it's perfect. There are multiple styles of learning and comprehension that each individual is predisposed to. It's possible that this school has found another teaching style that improves on that model. It is encouraging that a school system is willing to allow it's educators to work with changing that model and adapting to better suit their population. Perhaps this design isn't the best for X% of the students in the class, but maybe it reaches more students in the class as a whole? The article is pretty light on detail, so i'm completely speculating on my own here.
  - DickingAround 11y ago
    I think the argument he's making isn't that it's perfect but instead that this logic doesn't hold. Old techniques are not inherently bad. They're only bad if we actually did discover something new in the meantime. In this case I think we have learned since then, but the article doesn't say that; it just says the old stuff is old and thus bad.
  - eitally 11y ago
    The multiple learning styles theory has been largely debunked. https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/features/edu-a0037478.pdf https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/features/edu-a0037478.pdf http://www.wired.com/2015/01/need-know-learning-styles-myth-two-minutes/ http://www.wired.com/2015/01/need-know-learning-styles-myth-... http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/finding_common_ground/2014/04/the_myth_of_learning_styles.html http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/finding_common_ground/2014/04... http://www.educatorstechnology.com/2013/12/the-myth-of-learning-styles-debunked.html http://www.educatorstechnology.com/2013/12/the-myth-of-learn... http://psi.sagepub.com/content/9/3/105.abstract http://psi.sagepub.com/content/9/3/105.abstract and I particularly like the concluding paragraph of this article: http://anniemurphypaul.com/2013/10/forget-about-learning-styles-heres-something-better/ http://anniemurphypaul.com/2013/10/forget-about-learning-sty...
    - setpatchaddress 11y ago
      Boy, I don't. I find it repulsive. I'm naturally a "deep learner" by that classification system, but the author of that blog seems to be implying that everyone has a choice in the matter, which does not match my observations. If it's actually true that people can be divided into those categories, it would be interesting to look more deeply, to understand why people differ in this way. Otherwise, you're just pointing at yourself and saying "look how smart I am!"
- thrownaway2424 11y ago
  Look how nice that 1915 room is! It's really a place designed to make the occupants feel ennobled. The ceiling is 20 feet high and there are huge windows. The 2015 classroom looks like a real wrist-slitter.
- tommyallen 11y ago
  Change for the sake of change can reveal good ideas. Every time I hear someone talk like this, I can't help but think of what we wouldn't have now if we kept sticking with things that "just worked." In my opinion, introducing change that isn't a patently bad idea will always be a step towards something positive. If the change proves that an old idea is still the better idea, then we will have a better defined idea.
jmknoll 11y ago
Wait, so how do you put a piece of candy in a bag without opening it? By ripping a hole in the side?
- cm2012 11y ago
  For a given definition of "in", you could push the candy in through the stretchy plastic to the center without breaking the wall. Or, if you push all the way through, it's probably going to be the smallest hole necessary.
  - SCAQTony 11y ago
    Build the bag around it?
  - hibbelig 11y ago
    It said "paper bag" :-)
- artimaeis 11y ago
  http://teacherweb.com/WA/LakesHighSchool/LegaryScience/endocytosis_activity.pdf http://teacherweb.com/WA/LakesHighSchool/LegaryScience/endoc... TL;DR: You push the candy into the side of the bag, deforming the side of the bag without puncturing it. You can reach your hand in the opening and tie a string around the candy nodule then cut the excess paper off. Now you've gotten the candy from the outside to the inside without having exposed the inside of the bag to the outside! Enodcytosis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocytosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocytosis) is awesome!
  - qbrass 11y ago
    How do you put your hand in the bag without opening it?
    - artimaeis 11y ago
      Your hand entering the bag is just to simulate the mechanical forces within the cell - if you look at this image (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocytosis#/media/File:Endocytosis_types.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocytosis#/media/File:Endocy...) it might help to visualize the mechanism in question.
monkmartinez 11y ago
I like the 1915 layout. I also send my kids to a "traditional" school that emphasizes; writing, reading, and math(no common core). Teacher stands at the front of the class and teaches. The kids are required to memorize basic math facts, poems every two weeks, and give book reports since kindergarten. They are expected to recite the poems in front of the class in a loud, concise manner. They are taught how to think critically with math/science work-sheets that force concentration on math/science in a way that, I think, actually applies to everyday life. There is very little technology in the classroom, also something my wife and I chose. Rows of seats with windows all along the entire length of one side in every class room if the kids want to day dream/look at clouds a bit. They have homework from kindergarten and my kids get it done the second they come in the house (30-45min a day)... Only because they want to go ride their bikes, and play in the neighborhood :)
- snowwrestler 11y ago
  Why would you call out "no common core"? It sounds like your kid's school is likely well in line with, or exceeds, the Common Core. More and more it seems like people don't know what the "Common Core" even is. It's just becoming shorthand for whatever someone doesn't think they like about math pedagogy. In short, the Common Core is a set of standards for math proficiency. It does not dictate any particular way of teaching math.
powertower 11y ago
> What’s happening at Betsy Layne and other Kentucky schools show what’s possible when students are held to high standards and good teachers have the opportunity to become great. Key point above for me. The worst schools in America tend to almost always not hold students to any standard, with all bad behaviors excused via certain political talking-points that deflect blame onto everyone else (everyone but the student and the parent).

It is interesting with standing space for some of your work. I find that I can't stand and do certain types of work (I have a standing desk I use a lot). Writing which require assembling a lot of information into something coherent is really hard for me to do standing. I could imagine that maths would be the same, but I haven't tried it. If you then have a class room with only standing space, maybe that isn't great. But it could of course be the opposite, that standing works better.

kwhitefoot 11y ago
Office work and education are different things. I have a standing desk and I use it standing about half the time. I mostly design, write, and debug software and I can do it standing as easily as sitting. But I couldn't do that work effectively in the classroom described in Gates' article. On the other hand, when discussing new features and brainstorming radical changes then that classroom looks just like the conference rooms that we do use for that.

skywhopper 11y ago

The image comparing the classroom layout in 1915 vs 2015 is misleading, but also silly. The US educational system has served a lot of people very well throughout those 100 years using exactly that setup. Such rhetorical strategies drive me nuts. Lots of things are different, but change for change's sake is never a good idea.

jmnicolas 11y ago
What surprised me was how sad the children looked on the 1915 photo. Like they're in detention or something.
- arethuza 11y ago
  There are cultural differences around smiling so its possible that they are trying to look serious and studious - assuming that the US attitude to smiling has changed over the years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smile#Cultural_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smile#Cultural_differences NB On my first visits to the US 20+ years ago I was surprised at how you would get big beaming smiles* from people for no apparent reason... but then again I'm from a notoriously dour part of a dour country. [*] I of course eventually realised that people were giving me big beaming smiles because they were paid to!.
  - WorldMaker 11y ago
    Certainly the US attitude towards smiling has changed with regards to camera technology. I'm too lazy to look up primary referents on the subject right now, but long shutter times encouraged people not to smile to avoid grotesque photos and then as shutter times got faster photographers began to eventually "mandate" smiles to prove that they had better cameras until eventually it was weird in the US not to smile in a planned photo.
- thrownaway2424 11y ago
  Considering the picture was taken indoors, at night, with 1915 film technology, all of the people in the picture would have to hold perfectly still for several seconds. That might affect their countenance.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
t3f 11y ago
I have to disagree a bit here. It's true that the system has worked for many people, but you can not tell me that it's perfect. There are multiple styles of learning and comprehension that each individual is predisposed to. It's possible that this school has found another teaching style that improves on that model. It is encouraging that a school system is willing to allow it's educators to work with changing that model and adapting to better suit their population. Perhaps this design isn't the best for X% of the students in the class, but maybe it reaches more students in the class as a whole? The article is pretty light on detail, so i'm completely speculating on my own here.
- DickingAround 11y ago
  I think the argument he's making isn't that it's perfect but instead that this logic doesn't hold. Old techniques are not inherently bad. They're only bad if we actually did discover something new in the meantime. In this case I think we have learned since then, but the article doesn't say that; it just says the old stuff is old and thus bad.
- eitally 11y ago
  The multiple learning styles theory has been largely debunked. https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/features/edu-a0037478.pdf https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/features/edu-a0037478.pdf http://www.wired.com/2015/01/need-know-learning-styles-myth-two-minutes/ http://www.wired.com/2015/01/need-know-learning-styles-myth-... http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/finding_common_ground/2014/04/the_myth_of_learning_styles.html http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/finding_common_ground/2014/04... http://www.educatorstechnology.com/2013/12/the-myth-of-learning-styles-debunked.html http://www.educatorstechnology.com/2013/12/the-myth-of-learn... http://psi.sagepub.com/content/9/3/105.abstract http://psi.sagepub.com/content/9/3/105.abstract and I particularly like the concluding paragraph of this article: http://anniemurphypaul.com/2013/10/forget-about-learning-styles-heres-something-better/ http://anniemurphypaul.com/2013/10/forget-about-learning-sty...
  - setpatchaddress 11y ago
    Boy, I don't. I find it repulsive. I'm naturally a "deep learner" by that classification system, but the author of that blog seems to be implying that everyone has a choice in the matter, which does not match my observations. If it's actually true that people can be divided into those categories, it would be interesting to look more deeply, to understand why people differ in this way. Otherwise, you're just pointing at yourself and saying "look how smart I am!"
thrownaway2424 11y ago
Look how nice that 1915 room is! It's really a place designed to make the occupants feel ennobled. The ceiling is 20 feet high and there are huge windows. The 2015 classroom looks like a real wrist-slitter.
tommyallen 11y ago
Change for the sake of change can reveal good ideas. Every time I hear someone talk like this, I can't help but think of what we wouldn't have now if we kept sticking with things that "just worked." In my opinion, introducing change that isn't a patently bad idea will always be a step towards something positive. If the change proves that an old idea is still the better idea, then we will have a better defined idea.

jmknoll 11y ago

Wait, so how do you put a piece of candy in a bag without opening it? By ripping a hole in the side?

cm2012 11y ago
For a given definition of "in", you could push the candy in through the stretchy plastic to the center without breaking the wall. Or, if you push all the way through, it's probably going to be the smallest hole necessary.
- SCAQTony 11y ago
  Build the bag around it?
- hibbelig 11y ago
  It said "paper bag" :-)
artimaeis 11y ago
http://teacherweb.com/WA/LakesHighSchool/LegaryScience/endocytosis_activity.pdf http://teacherweb.com/WA/LakesHighSchool/LegaryScience/endoc... TL;DR: You push the candy into the side of the bag, deforming the side of the bag without puncturing it. You can reach your hand in the opening and tie a string around the candy nodule then cut the excess paper off. Now you've gotten the candy from the outside to the inside without having exposed the inside of the bag to the outside! Enodcytosis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocytosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocytosis) is awesome!
- qbrass 11y ago
  How do you put your hand in the bag without opening it?
  - artimaeis 11y ago
    Your hand entering the bag is just to simulate the mechanical forces within the cell - if you look at this image (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocytosis#/media/File:Endocytosis_types.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocytosis#/media/File:Endocy...) it might help to visualize the mechanism in question.

monkmartinez 11y ago

I like the 1915 layout. I also send my kids to a "traditional" school that emphasizes; writing, reading, and math(no common core). Teacher stands at the front of the class and teaches. The kids are required to memorize basic math facts, poems every two weeks, and give book reports since kindergarten. They are expected to recite the poems in front of the class in a loud, concise manner. They are taught how to think critically with math/science work-sheets that force concentration on math/science in a way that, I think, actually applies to everyday life. There is very little technology in the classroom, also something my wife and I chose. Rows of seats with windows all along the entire length of one side in every class room if the kids want to day dream/look at clouds a bit. They have homework from kindergarten and my kids get it done the second they come in the house (30-45min a day)... Only because they want to go ride their bikes, and play in the neighborhood :)

snowwrestler 11y ago
Why would you call out "no common core"? It sounds like your kid's school is likely well in line with, or exceeds, the Common Core. More and more it seems like people don't know what the "Common Core" even is. It's just becoming shorthand for whatever someone doesn't think they like about math pedagogy. In short, the Common Core is a set of standards for math proficiency. It does not dictate any particular way of teaching math.

powertower 11y ago

> What’s happening at Betsy Layne and other Kentucky schools show what’s possible when students are held to high standards and good teachers have the opportunity to become great. Key point above for me. The worst schools in America tend to almost always not hold students to any standard, with all bad behaviors excused via certain political talking-points that deflect blame onto everyone else (everyone but the student and the parent).