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I'm not claiming anything, I'm saying: its possible that there is more to consciousness than it appears and that the barriers to studying the relationships betw

by cnp 11y ago

I'm not claiming anything, I'm saying: its possible that there is more to consciousness than it appears and that the barriers to studying the relationships between certain tryptamine compounds and the human psyche is a worthy scientific endeavor to overcome. All I can speak to are my own personal experiences, and those who participated in Rick Strassman's DMT study between 1990 and 1995 at the University of New Mexico. If you don't mind me asking, how is this not clear?

Udo 11y ago
> I'm not claiming anything, I'm saying: its possible that there is more to consciousness than it appears That is not correct. In the post above you said, literally, "you don't need to travel far to reach the outer limits of space or even have contact experiences [...] Its like, Fermi's Paradox is almost completely irrelevant if you come from the position that any sufficiently advanced civilization is aware of the possible non-local properties of consciousness". That's a claim. I think it's fair to conclude you are not assigning an extremely low probability to there being "more to consciousness than it appears". > studying the relationships between certain tryptamine compounds and the human psyche This is a purely biological endeavor. The reason why I responded to your earlier post, and also the reason why this even shows up in a thread about planet formation, is that you claim to be able to explore the cosmos by ingesting mind-altering substances. > All I can speak to are my own personal experiences. For what it's worth, nobody is disputing you had these experiences. What is in dispute is the claim that these experiences yield scientific facts by virtue of remote viewing.
- cnp 11y ago
  Ok let me clarify my position completely so that there is no dispute, and then I need to get back to work: Formal and informal study participants have noted that when you ingest N,N-Dimethyltryptamine certain strange contact-like phenomena tend to occur within the biological-psychological interface known as Consciousness, and that these experiences -- which have an internal consistency -- seem to be inexplicably independent of culture, background or time. These contact experiences were so shocking that the lead investigator, Rick Strassman, discontinued his study. Meanwhile, nearly 20 years later, there are still legal barriers in place for the further study of these results due to the War on Drugs. My position is: the phenomena -- based upon my own personal experience -- is deeply strange, and in when put within the context of Fermi's Paradox, the Drake equation, etc, it might be time to approach the subject of consciousness from a different angle. Its so simple, its merely to investigate.
  - pavel_lishin 11y ago
    I agree with you that these things are interesting, and these studies will probably reveal some really interesting stuff about human consciousness, and our brain's chemical make-up. But it's a really huge leap to hope really hard that it'll also reveal the secret to contacting aliens.
  - Udo 11y ago
    > when you ingest N,N-Dimethyltryptamine certain strange contact-like phenomena tend to occur That's not in question. > occur within the biological-psychological interface known as Consciousness This sentence includes a little submarine-like assumption, namely that our brains are merely the interface to a larger paranormal consciousness, as opposed to being the hardware that actually generates "consciousness". At this point, there is no scientific reason to believe this assumption which you smuggled in there has any factual validity. > These contact experiences were so shocking that the lead investigator, Rick Strassman, discontinued his study. Scientific efforts don't get discontinued because they are "shocking". While an individual researcher might move on, for whatever reason, it's not correct to imply that certain outcomes are so disconcerting the scientific community would shy away from them. Otherwise, large swaths of physics and biology would have been abandoned a long time ago. > My position is: the phenomena [...] is deeply strange, and [...] it might be time to approach the subject of consciousness from a different angle. Yes, I think that position was understood from your first comment.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - Wingman4l7 11y ago
    > these experiences -- which have an internal consistency -- seem to be inexplicably independent of culture, background or time You've repeated this point in your other comments. Why would these experiences not simply be a result of the interactions between this chemical and typical human physiology? Alcohol has predictable effects when consumed -- I'm sure ancient Egyptians had equally impaired motor control as 21st century Australians. Why would DMT be any different?
peteretep 11y ago
> how is this not clear You started off by saying "this is very easy to test". You were right, and no evidence has been found yet. We could continue searching for Russell's teapot too, but why would we?
- Udo 11y ago
  Also, cnp's post has been edited to add that rhetorical "how is it not clear" and the reference to the Strassmann study after I already replied to it, otherwise it would have been addressed.
  - cnp 11y ago
    Udo, this is an honest, sincere question because I really didn't expect this strict of a response to my words from the community. It was meant from the get go to be a discussion, not an argument for or against the reality of this thing or that. So I'm trying to learn. How should one approach highly speculative questions like this, scientifically? The reason why I originally posted was simply to put forth a possibility based upon the fact that we don't yet understand what consciousness is. I'm simply trying to understand -- from your perspective, is it possible to even posit this possibility of a non-local consciousness, or some kind of "external" relationship that exists entirely within the interior of the mind that may be influenced by the ingestion of certain types of drugs? If you have a wide variety of informal testimony that claims that something strange is going on, should one investigate? Isn't that the role of science? We've already learned so much from research into psychedelics from the 50's and the 60's; don't you think there is quite a bit more we could still discover? We obviously don't have the experimental evidence yet to say things are this way or that, so where does one begin? Or is the sort of strict responses that I've received due to my delivery?
    - nefitty 11y ago
      I'm planning on doing a Kickstarter to fund research into non-local consciousness. I'm not actually going to use the money to do research. I'm going to buy a car. Either way the results will probably be the same: "Nope, we didn't find nothin' guys."

by cnp 11y ago

Udo 11y ago

> I'm not claiming anything, I'm saying: its possible that there is more to consciousness than it appears That is not correct. In the post above you said, literally, "you don't need to travel far to reach the outer limits of space or even have contact experiences [...] Its like, Fermi's Paradox is almost completely irrelevant if you come from the position that any sufficiently advanced civilization is aware of the possible non-local properties of consciousness". That's a claim. I think it's fair to conclude you are not assigning an extremely low probability to there being "more to consciousness than it appears". > studying the relationships between certain tryptamine compounds and the human psyche This is a purely biological endeavor. The reason why I responded to your earlier post, and also the reason why this even shows up in a thread about planet formation, is that you claim to be able to explore the cosmos by ingesting mind-altering substances. > All I can speak to are my own personal experiences. For what it's worth, nobody is disputing you had these experiences. What is in dispute is the claim that these experiences yield scientific facts by virtue of remote viewing.

cnp 11y ago
Ok let me clarify my position completely so that there is no dispute, and then I need to get back to work: Formal and informal study participants have noted that when you ingest N,N-Dimethyltryptamine certain strange contact-like phenomena tend to occur within the biological-psychological interface known as Consciousness, and that these experiences -- which have an internal consistency -- seem to be inexplicably independent of culture, background or time. These contact experiences were so shocking that the lead investigator, Rick Strassman, discontinued his study. Meanwhile, nearly 20 years later, there are still legal barriers in place for the further study of these results due to the War on Drugs. My position is: the phenomena -- based upon my own personal experience -- is deeply strange, and in when put within the context of Fermi's Paradox, the Drake equation, etc, it might be time to approach the subject of consciousness from a different angle. Its so simple, its merely to investigate.
- pavel_lishin 11y ago
  I agree with you that these things are interesting, and these studies will probably reveal some really interesting stuff about human consciousness, and our brain's chemical make-up. But it's a really huge leap to hope really hard that it'll also reveal the secret to contacting aliens.
- Udo 11y ago
  > when you ingest N,N-Dimethyltryptamine certain strange contact-like phenomena tend to occur That's not in question. > occur within the biological-psychological interface known as Consciousness This sentence includes a little submarine-like assumption, namely that our brains are merely the interface to a larger paranormal consciousness, as opposed to being the hardware that actually generates "consciousness". At this point, there is no scientific reason to believe this assumption which you smuggled in there has any factual validity. > These contact experiences were so shocking that the lead investigator, Rick Strassman, discontinued his study. Scientific efforts don't get discontinued because they are "shocking". While an individual researcher might move on, for whatever reason, it's not correct to imply that certain outcomes are so disconcerting the scientific community would shy away from them. Otherwise, large swaths of physics and biology would have been abandoned a long time ago. > My position is: the phenomena [...] is deeply strange, and [...] it might be time to approach the subject of consciousness from a different angle. Yes, I think that position was understood from your first comment.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- Wingman4l7 11y ago
  > these experiences -- which have an internal consistency -- seem to be inexplicably independent of culture, background or time You've repeated this point in your other comments. Why would these experiences not simply be a result of the interactions between this chemical and typical human physiology? Alcohol has predictable effects when consumed -- I'm sure ancient Egyptians had equally impaired motor control as 21st century Australians. Why would DMT be any different?

peteretep 11y ago

> how is this not clear You started off by saying "this is very easy to test". You were right, and no evidence has been found yet. We could continue searching for Russell's teapot too, but why would we?

Udo 11y ago
Also, cnp's post has been edited to add that rhetorical "how is it not clear" and the reference to the Strassmann study after I already replied to it, otherwise it would have been addressed.
- cnp 11y ago
  Udo, this is an honest, sincere question because I really didn't expect this strict of a response to my words from the community. It was meant from the get go to be a discussion, not an argument for or against the reality of this thing or that. So I'm trying to learn. How should one approach highly speculative questions like this, scientifically? The reason why I originally posted was simply to put forth a possibility based upon the fact that we don't yet understand what consciousness is. I'm simply trying to understand -- from your perspective, is it possible to even posit this possibility of a non-local consciousness, or some kind of "external" relationship that exists entirely within the interior of the mind that may be influenced by the ingestion of certain types of drugs? If you have a wide variety of informal testimony that claims that something strange is going on, should one investigate? Isn't that the role of science? We've already learned so much from research into psychedelics from the 50's and the 60's; don't you think there is quite a bit more we could still discover? We obviously don't have the experimental evidence yet to say things are this way or that, so where does one begin? Or is the sort of strict responses that I've received due to my delivery?
  - nefitty 11y ago
    I'm planning on doing a Kickstarter to fund research into non-local consciousness. I'm not actually going to use the money to do research. I'm going to buy a car. Either way the results will probably be the same: "Nope, we didn't find nothin' guys."