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Is this not sniping from the sidelines? Paul has proposed program size as a metric for the power of programming languages. Ron criticizes, but doesn't suggest a

by andreyf 19y ago

Is this not sniping from the sidelines? Paul has proposed program size as a metric for the power of programming languages. Ron criticizes, but doesn't suggest anything better (other than "make creating programs easier", or "have well-organized and easy-to-use libraries") - he seems to argue that there is no perfect metric. Sure. Maybe. But you can't get far with such skepticism. Personally, I think Paul is enticed by too simple a rule-of-thumb when he defines such an easy metric. Instead of settling for something as catchy as "programs should be short", defining the power of languages may be better approached from a psychological perspective. Programming is about bridging the gap between our mental representations and the computer's representations of instructions for (one) interacting with users and (two) manipulating data. A better (albeit more complex/open-ended) metric would be to "maximize the utilization of our mental structures in a formal language". For example, abstraction is an obvious way our minds understand the world, and hence we have all kinds of programming tricks to express abstraction in code. We should be asking questions like "what other ways do our minds comprehend the world?", and writing languages which mold to those ways. How could we express metaphor in a formal language? Now that I think about it, maybe I'm proposing a slight generalization to Paul's metric - a language is powerful if it can express problems using the least number of mental structures. But code trees are easier to count than mental structures, so I guess we should stick to those for now.

greendestiny 19y ago
Your definition is good, and I like it, but it's probably too vague to really get you anywhere. The thing this article is right about is that exactly same program with shorter keywords isn't likely anyone's definition of a more powerful language. What pg is right about is that writing less code to achieve more is a workable definition of power - as long as the savings come in better program structure and not in cosmetic changes. Which category Arc falls in, I'm not able to comment on yet.
gibsonf1 19y ago
TIME Since time is the most limited human resource, maybe the best metric for the most powerful language would be that programming language which, overall, saves the most time in creating, maintaining, and improving a program. Using "saving time' as the standard of value, PG's use of fewer nodes and less lengthy names both help in creating programs with less time, so ARC seems to be right on. I intuitively like the lengthier names in CL for readability, but at the end of the day, you still have to not only know them all through memorization, you also have to know the order of parameters and keys, which is not consistent among all functions/macros in CL. So having shorter names to memorize, and more importantly fewer, would definitely save time in the learning stage. The question I don't know the answer to is how fast can ARC be changed, maintained, and improved, but I'm guessing this will also be faster.
- davidw 19y ago
  Sounds like a good way of measuring things, although I harbor some doubts as to the conflicts inherent in "creating" vs "maintaining", with Perl being the whipping poster boy for throwaway code.
- andreyf 19y ago
  TIME Agreed. These are all correct ways of defining the same thing (the "power" of languages), and we need to pick whichever is useful depending on what we're trying to do. If we're trying to put a precise measure on the power of a language, PG's treelength seems to do the job perfectly. But how do we design a language which would create programs with the smallest tree length, or which would take the least time to write it? To answer this, it's best to consider how easily our basic mental structures can be expressed in the language. The concept of sets, lists, map, and reduce exist in our lives whether we know program or not. If a language contains or lets us easily express other embodied mental structures such as relations, tags, partitions, etc. easily, it will be more powerful than languages which don't.
  - bayareaguy 19y ago
    I think the problem with the Power=Work/Time approach for programming languages is you can never get people to agree on how to measure Time. Whose time? What does it include?
lisper 19y ago
> Is this not sniping from the sidelines? No, because I'm hacking too :-) > Ron criticizes, but doesn't suggest anything better That's because my whole point is that programming is much too rich and complicated for any one metric to be particularly useful. (Ironically, the exact same thing is true of painting, which is Paul' central metaphor!)
- sammyo 19y ago
  But trying to optimize multiple variables becomes an excercise in game theory. That is a value of each metric's benefit needs to be added for each 'player', the programmer, management, qa, the customer... This becomes an equation that I for one will wait on the Singularity to resolve.
- andreyf 19y ago
  That's because my whole point is that programming is much too rich and complicated for any one metric to be particularly useful. I think that's where Paul disagrees. I don't have enough experience to agree or disagree with either one of you - it would be nice if Paul were right, and there were a simple "rule of thumb" metric that could guide him to create the 100-year language, but your point sounds truthy also.
tx 19y ago
Isn't the true metric is always time? "How long will it take me to implement algorithm X in language Y?" Paul assumes that program size == coding time. However, do we really spend most of our time typing? And can we honestly say that shorter programs take less time to read than longer ones, even if all are written by ourselves? In my opinion language's power should be related to its capabilities for abstraction, more precisely - higher orders of it. High degrees of abstraction give you better code rewrite/reuse ratios, which means as your program grows, you gain more power since you can reuse various abstract concepts you've already implemented. Is there a sound relation between language's ability for abstraction and size of programs written in it? I am not so sure.
wallflower 19y ago
As much as I like elegant languages, sometimes (when crunch is on at work), I feel like I'm paid to copy-and-paste code (80%) and do the 20% (or more) modification that differentiates me from a trained monkey...

by andreyf 19y ago

greendestiny 19y ago

Your definition is good, and I like it, but it's probably too vague to really get you anywhere. The thing this article is right about is that exactly same program with shorter keywords isn't likely anyone's definition of a more powerful language. What pg is right about is that writing less code to achieve more is a workable definition of power - as long as the savings come in better program structure and not in cosmetic changes. Which category Arc falls in, I'm not able to comment on yet.

gibsonf1 19y ago

TIME Since time is the most limited human resource, maybe the best metric for the most powerful language would be that programming language which, overall, saves the most time in creating, maintaining, and improving a program. Using "saving time' as the standard of value, PG's use of fewer nodes and less lengthy names both help in creating programs with less time, so ARC seems to be right on. I intuitively like the lengthier names in CL for readability, but at the end of the day, you still have to not only know them all through memorization, you also have to know the order of parameters and keys, which is not consistent among all functions/macros in CL. So having shorter names to memorize, and more importantly fewer, would definitely save time in the learning stage. The question I don't know the answer to is how fast can ARC be changed, maintained, and improved, but I'm guessing this will also be faster.

davidw 19y ago
Sounds like a good way of measuring things, although I harbor some doubts as to the conflicts inherent in "creating" vs "maintaining", with Perl being the whipping poster boy for throwaway code.
andreyf 19y ago
TIME Agreed. These are all correct ways of defining the same thing (the "power" of languages), and we need to pick whichever is useful depending on what we're trying to do. If we're trying to put a precise measure on the power of a language, PG's treelength seems to do the job perfectly. But how do we design a language which would create programs with the smallest tree length, or which would take the least time to write it? To answer this, it's best to consider how easily our basic mental structures can be expressed in the language. The concept of sets, lists, map, and reduce exist in our lives whether we know program or not. If a language contains or lets us easily express other embodied mental structures such as relations, tags, partitions, etc. easily, it will be more powerful than languages which don't.
- bayareaguy 19y ago
  I think the problem with the Power=Work/Time approach for programming languages is you can never get people to agree on how to measure Time. Whose time? What does it include?

lisper 19y ago

> Is this not sniping from the sidelines? No, because I'm hacking too :-) > Ron criticizes, but doesn't suggest anything better That's because my whole point is that programming is much too rich and complicated for any one metric to be particularly useful. (Ironically, the exact same thing is true of painting, which is Paul' central metaphor!)

sammyo 19y ago
But trying to optimize multiple variables becomes an excercise in game theory. That is a value of each metric's benefit needs to be added for each 'player', the programmer, management, qa, the customer... This becomes an equation that I for one will wait on the Singularity to resolve.
andreyf 19y ago
That's because my whole point is that programming is much too rich and complicated for any one metric to be particularly useful. I think that's where Paul disagrees. I don't have enough experience to agree or disagree with either one of you - it would be nice if Paul were right, and there were a simple "rule of thumb" metric that could guide him to create the 100-year language, but your point sounds truthy also.

tx 19y ago

Isn't the true metric is always time? "How long will it take me to implement algorithm X in language Y?" Paul assumes that program size == coding time. However, do we really spend most of our time typing? And can we honestly say that shorter programs take less time to read than longer ones, even if all are written by ourselves? In my opinion language's power should be related to its capabilities for abstraction, more precisely - higher orders of it. High degrees of abstraction give you better code rewrite/reuse ratios, which means as your program grows, you gain more power since you can reuse various abstract concepts you've already implemented. Is there a sound relation between language's ability for abstraction and size of programs written in it? I am not so sure.

wallflower 19y ago

As much as I like elegant languages, sometimes (when crunch is on at work), I feel like I'm paid to copy-and-paste code (80%) and do the 20% (or more) modification that differentiates me from a trained monkey...