7 ms·

One thing that always surprises me about the search for ET is how often the purely psychological / consciousness aspect is disregarded. As anyone who has worked

by cnp 11y ago

One thing that always surprises me about the search for ET is how often the purely psychological / consciousness aspect is disregarded. As anyone who has worked with DMT or Ayahuasca can tell you, you don't need to travel far to reach the outer limits of space or even have contact experiences, and this is very easy to test should the anti-scientific legal mechanisms preventing such a study be overcome. Its like, Fermi's Paradox is almost completely irrelevant if you come from the position that any sufficiently advanced civilization is aware of the possible non-local properties of consciousness.

ElysianEagle 11y ago
Not sure why you've been downvoted, but I think this is very much on point.
- cnp 11y ago
  I was curious of this as well, but not surprised. For the skeptics, all I ask is that you self experiment. Its easy and cheap, requiring only a simple extraction performed on the Arcacia Confusa plant, which you can order online.
  - pavel_lishin 11y ago
    But a sample size of one is worthless, especially when the person running the experiment is high :) On a more serious note, I have no idea how you'd actually test this. How would you prove or disprove that someone experimenting with hallucinogens is actually communicating with something else? The only thing I can think of is having two people under the influence being able to communicate with each other, with absolutely no other way of doing so. Subjects A and B have never met, and don't have any way of passing messages during their experience. Subject A is told to pass some randomly generated string to subject B, either directly or via some alien intermediary. If Subject B can guess Subject A's string, then that might be evidence of something interesting and objectively external happening.
    - cnp 11y ago
      Self-experimentation as I suggest -- an age old tradition in the scientific sphere -- is simply meant to reorient the person towards a broader understanding of the dimensions possible within the tryptamine-consciousness experience. I would never claim that personal experience alone is enough to quantify anything beyond mere opinion; that's where a formal control-based study steps in. But what it can do is quite dramatically open the mind to possibilities that were previously thought impossible or inconceivable -- a valuable practice.
      - coldtea 11y ago
        >Self-experimentation as I suggest -- an age old tradition in the scientific sphere -- is simply meant to reorient the person towards a broader understanding of the dimensions possible within the tryptamine-consciousness experience. That's what some people call mumbo jumbo. Either you really contact some aliens while high or not. If you do, you can pass some message/knowledge that only they could know to prove it. Else it's just some experience you have.
      - gnaritas 11y ago
        Such drugs do open the mind; often too far. Drugs are subjective psychological experiences, you are not seeing reality when you are tripping, you are not learning anything about the physical universe when you are tripping. You are having an experience in your own head that has no connection to the physical universe.
        igravious 11y ago
        The experience you are having in your head is your reality, reality is always (inter-)subjective. Of course you are learning something about the physical universe when you're tripping, you're learning how certain psycho-active interact with brain chemistry to alter your perception of the world. There is no `you' on the one hand and `objective observable reality' on the other. And, no, I'm not arguing for solipsism.
  - AJ007 11y ago
    I would highly advise against taking anything which may have a long term impact on one's ability to discern between reality and fantasy.
Wingman4l7 11y ago
Are you implying that people are making actual contact with extra-terrestrial life via hallucinogens, and not just interpreting the internal experience of altered brain chemistry?
- cnp 11y ago
  Without a doubt, there is something highly mysterious going on that should be explored. What that is, I'm not sure. The only way we can know is to explore it scientifically and without bias, accepting the accounts from those participating "as if" true and then working backwards systematically towards a theory or direction. I cannot emphasize enough, what you encounter in the DMT or Aya state can be totally alien and extradimensional, and the themes you find within seem to be consistent across highly disparate cultures as well as time.
  - splawn 11y ago
    The only way we can know is to explore it scientifically and without bias, accepting the accounts from those participating "as if" true and then working backwards systematically towards a theory or direction. DMT is weird fun and all, but I am pretty sure this isn't science. Working "as if" true and working backwards is bias. (See creationism and intelligent design)
    - cnp 11y ago
      When I say "as if" true, what I mean is: don't approach the study with the assumption that it's merely a psychological phenomena derived from culture or experience (typical approach), and then dismiss the High Weirdness that each participant encounters as simply a manifestation of said psychology. Collect the data first, find the commonalities between each participant, and then begin discussing the possibilities that emerge from the open minded exploration of a phenomena that has been studied far less than it should.
      - gnaritas 11y ago
        > When I say "as if" true, what I mean is: don't approach the study with the assumption that it's merely a psychological phenomena derived from culture or experience (typical approach) Which is literally saying don't use science. Because that is what any scientists would use as the null hypothesis in these scenarios because it is the most likely explanation. > Collect the data first, find the commonalities between each participant, and then begin discussing the possibilities that emerge from the open minded exploration of a phenomena that has been studied far less than it should. That's called religion. Science requires evidence, and personal experiences while on drugs are evidence of nothing more than psychological phenomena. There is no reason at all to think they're anything more than that.
Udo 11y ago
> As anyone who has worked with DMT or Ayahuasca can tell you, you don't need to travel far to reach the outer limits of space or even have contact experiences The effects of drug-induced illusions are scientifically interesting to a number of research fields, including biochemistry and neurobiology. It may also be valuable for self-discovery and personal actualization. However, if you claim to be able to discern cosmological facts from these experiences, we are now firmly in the realm of religion. > and this is very easy to test should the completely anti-scientific legal mechanisms preventing such a study be overcome There have been a lot of studies testing supernatural powers, with and without the influence of drugs, in the sixties and seventies. None of these have ever yielded anything. But if it's very easy to test, as you claim, then go ahead and test it. The James Randi foundation offers a sizable prize for you if you can show this works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_...
- cnp 11y ago
  I'm not claiming anything, I'm saying: its possible that there is more to consciousness than it appears and that the barriers to studying the relationships between certain tryptamine compounds and the human psyche is a worthy scientific endeavor to overcome. All I can speak to are my own personal experiences, and those who participated in Rick Strassman's DMT study between 1990 and 1995 at the University of New Mexico. If you don't mind me asking, how is this not clear?
  - Udo 11y ago
    > I'm not claiming anything, I'm saying: its possible that there is more to consciousness than it appears That is not correct. In the post above you said, literally, "you don't need to travel far to reach the outer limits of space or even have contact experiences [...] Its like, Fermi's Paradox is almost completely irrelevant if you come from the position that any sufficiently advanced civilization is aware of the possible non-local properties of consciousness". That's a claim. I think it's fair to conclude you are not assigning an extremely low probability to there being "more to consciousness than it appears". > studying the relationships between certain tryptamine compounds and the human psyche This is a purely biological endeavor. The reason why I responded to your earlier post, and also the reason why this even shows up in a thread about planet formation, is that you claim to be able to explore the cosmos by ingesting mind-altering substances. > All I can speak to are my own personal experiences. For what it's worth, nobody is disputing you had these experiences. What is in dispute is the claim that these experiences yield scientific facts by virtue of remote viewing.
coldtea 11y ago
>As anyone who has worked with DMT or Ayahuasca can tell you, you don't need to travel far to reach the outer limits of space or even have contact experiences Well, with DMT etc. you don't need to travel far to BELIEVE you've reached "the outer limits of space or have contact experiences" -- which is not the same as actually reaching it and meeting anyone... There's a reason they're called "hallucinations". >Its like, Fermi's Paradox is almost completely irrelevant if you come from the position that any sufficiently advanced civilization is aware of the possible non-local properties of consciousness. Also if you believe in magic and teleportation.

by cnp 11y ago

ElysianEagle 11y ago

Not sure why you've been downvoted, but I think this is very much on point.

cnp 11y ago
I was curious of this as well, but not surprised. For the skeptics, all I ask is that you self experiment. Its easy and cheap, requiring only a simple extraction performed on the Arcacia Confusa plant, which you can order online.
- pavel_lishin 11y ago
  But a sample size of one is worthless, especially when the person running the experiment is high :) On a more serious note, I have no idea how you'd actually test this. How would you prove or disprove that someone experimenting with hallucinogens is actually communicating with something else? The only thing I can think of is having two people under the influence being able to communicate with each other, with absolutely no other way of doing so. Subjects A and B have never met, and don't have any way of passing messages during their experience. Subject A is told to pass some randomly generated string to subject B, either directly or via some alien intermediary. If Subject B can guess Subject A's string, then that might be evidence of something interesting and objectively external happening.
  - cnp 11y ago
    Self-experimentation as I suggest -- an age old tradition in the scientific sphere -- is simply meant to reorient the person towards a broader understanding of the dimensions possible within the tryptamine-consciousness experience. I would never claim that personal experience alone is enough to quantify anything beyond mere opinion; that's where a formal control-based study steps in. But what it can do is quite dramatically open the mind to possibilities that were previously thought impossible or inconceivable -- a valuable practice.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      >Self-experimentation as I suggest -- an age old tradition in the scientific sphere -- is simply meant to reorient the person towards a broader understanding of the dimensions possible within the tryptamine-consciousness experience. That's what some people call mumbo jumbo. Either you really contact some aliens while high or not. If you do, you can pass some message/knowledge that only they could know to prove it. Else it's just some experience you have.
    - gnaritas 11y ago
      Such drugs do open the mind; often too far. Drugs are subjective psychological experiences, you are not seeing reality when you are tripping, you are not learning anything about the physical universe when you are tripping. You are having an experience in your own head that has no connection to the physical universe.
      - igravious 11y ago
        The experience you are having in your head is your reality, reality is always (inter-)subjective. Of course you are learning something about the physical universe when you're tripping, you're learning how certain psycho-active interact with brain chemistry to alter your perception of the world. There is no `you' on the one hand and `objective observable reality' on the other. And, no, I'm not arguing for solipsism.
- AJ007 11y ago
  I would highly advise against taking anything which may have a long term impact on one's ability to discern between reality and fantasy.

Wingman4l7 11y ago

Are you implying that people are making actual contact with extra-terrestrial life via hallucinogens, and not just interpreting the internal experience of altered brain chemistry?

cnp 11y ago
Without a doubt, there is something highly mysterious going on that should be explored. What that is, I'm not sure. The only way we can know is to explore it scientifically and without bias, accepting the accounts from those participating "as if" true and then working backwards systematically towards a theory or direction. I cannot emphasize enough, what you encounter in the DMT or Aya state can be totally alien and extradimensional, and the themes you find within seem to be consistent across highly disparate cultures as well as time.
- splawn 11y ago
  The only way we can know is to explore it scientifically and without bias, accepting the accounts from those participating "as if" true and then working backwards systematically towards a theory or direction. DMT is weird fun and all, but I am pretty sure this isn't science. Working "as if" true and working backwards is bias. (See creationism and intelligent design)
  - cnp 11y ago
    When I say "as if" true, what I mean is: don't approach the study with the assumption that it's merely a psychological phenomena derived from culture or experience (typical approach), and then dismiss the High Weirdness that each participant encounters as simply a manifestation of said psychology. Collect the data first, find the commonalities between each participant, and then begin discussing the possibilities that emerge from the open minded exploration of a phenomena that has been studied far less than it should.
    - gnaritas 11y ago
      > When I say "as if" true, what I mean is: don't approach the study with the assumption that it's merely a psychological phenomena derived from culture or experience (typical approach) Which is literally saying don't use science. Because that is what any scientists would use as the null hypothesis in these scenarios because it is the most likely explanation. > Collect the data first, find the commonalities between each participant, and then begin discussing the possibilities that emerge from the open minded exploration of a phenomena that has been studied far less than it should. That's called religion. Science requires evidence, and personal experiences while on drugs are evidence of nothing more than psychological phenomena. There is no reason at all to think they're anything more than that.

Udo 11y ago

> As anyone who has worked with DMT or Ayahuasca can tell you, you don't need to travel far to reach the outer limits of space or even have contact experiences The effects of drug-induced illusions are scientifically interesting to a number of research fields, including biochemistry and neurobiology. It may also be valuable for self-discovery and personal actualization. However, if you claim to be able to discern cosmological facts from these experiences, we are now firmly in the realm of religion. > and this is very easy to test should the completely anti-scientific legal mechanisms preventing such a study be overcome There have been a lot of studies testing supernatural powers, with and without the influence of drugs, in the sixties and seventies. None of these have ever yielded anything. But if it's very easy to test, as you claim, then go ahead and test it. The James Randi foundation offers a sizable prize for you if you can show this works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_...

cnp 11y ago
I'm not claiming anything, I'm saying: its possible that there is more to consciousness than it appears and that the barriers to studying the relationships between certain tryptamine compounds and the human psyche is a worthy scientific endeavor to overcome. All I can speak to are my own personal experiences, and those who participated in Rick Strassman's DMT study between 1990 and 1995 at the University of New Mexico. If you don't mind me asking, how is this not clear?
- Udo 11y ago
  > I'm not claiming anything, I'm saying: its possible that there is more to consciousness than it appears That is not correct. In the post above you said, literally, "you don't need to travel far to reach the outer limits of space or even have contact experiences [...] Its like, Fermi's Paradox is almost completely irrelevant if you come from the position that any sufficiently advanced civilization is aware of the possible non-local properties of consciousness". That's a claim. I think it's fair to conclude you are not assigning an extremely low probability to there being "more to consciousness than it appears". > studying the relationships between certain tryptamine compounds and the human psyche This is a purely biological endeavor. The reason why I responded to your earlier post, and also the reason why this even shows up in a thread about planet formation, is that you claim to be able to explore the cosmos by ingesting mind-altering substances. > All I can speak to are my own personal experiences. For what it's worth, nobody is disputing you had these experiences. What is in dispute is the claim that these experiences yield scientific facts by virtue of remote viewing.

coldtea 11y ago

>As anyone who has worked with DMT or Ayahuasca can tell you, you don't need to travel far to reach the outer limits of space or even have contact experiences Well, with DMT etc. you don't need to travel far to BELIEVE you've reached "the outer limits of space or have contact experiences" -- which is not the same as actually reaching it and meeting anyone... There's a reason they're called "hallucinations". >Its like, Fermi's Paradox is almost completely irrelevant if you come from the position that any sufficiently advanced civilization is aware of the possible non-local properties of consciousness. Also if you believe in magic and teleportation.