7 ms·

Complain about the feature all you want, but pretending that it's not well documented or configurable is just silly. https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/librar

Complain about the feature all you want, but pretending that it's not well documented or configurable is just silly. https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85...

dantillberg 11y ago
Microsoft is pretty good at catering to the desires of enterprises, so you're right, but in the linked article I see at [0] that with a typical consumer license of Windows, I can reduce the "telemetry" level, but only to "Basic" from the default level of "Enhanced" (side note: how is it "enhanced" if it's the default?). While the Enhanced level accounts for a lot of the usage-specific statistics detailed in TFA, Basic still sends a lot of valuable data to Microsoft. And, despite paying for Windows, you can't turn it off unless you get an Enterprise/Academic license. [0]: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx#BKMK_UTC https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85...
- serge2k 11y ago
  That list looks less like valuable user data and more like basic telemetry data that is mostly useful to anyone trying to provide a good OS experience.
  - dantillberg 11y ago
    I did intentionally write "valuable" instead of "intrusive," as you're right -- that is very useful data to aid Microsoft in developing Windows. But as a user, I ought to be able to at least opt out. But typical Windows users cannot, even if they might think that they are by downgrading from Enhanced to Basic.
    - caskance 11y ago
      I think the fact that they call it "basic" rather than "none" makes it abundantly clear that some basic data is still being collected, and you're not completely opting out. Surely there's a limit on how stupid a user can be before you're allowed to stop designing for them.
  - marssaxman 11y ago
    Is it my machine, or is it theirs? If they want to do research they can use their own resources.
    - tamana 11y ago
      Why can't you be collaborative for mutual benefit?
      - marssaxman 11y ago
        If they asked nicely, I might consider it. Microsoft is not asking nicely, with Windows 10, so far as I can see; they're just... taking what they want.
    - serge2k 11y ago
      Have you ever worked on consumer software?
      - marssaxman 11y ago
        Yes, but it's not my preference.
- caskance 11y ago
  I'm objecting to the claim that users are "powerless to stop this [data collection] even if they knew what was happening, and they don't." To the contrary, it's very clear what is being collected and how to turn it off. As well as what you can't disable in cheaper versions, and which versions you need to buy in order to get that option. Obviously consumers would like Microsoft to sell them a product with more features for cheaper. But that's no different from any business ever, yet people are throwing a shitfit all over the internet based primarily on misinformation.
  - KirinDave 11y ago
    The shitfit is this sort of cognitive dissonance. As Apple does a lot of this shit without discussing it and has for years, but mysteriously people are comfortable with OSX. And of course, mobile apps are saturated with complex metrics collections. Every major phone app ships with a huge sum of metrics embedded that can be monitored and almost no mobile apps discuss this. Need we even mention web sites and their inescapable universal surveillance of their users? Even if cookies are turned off, there is so much we can (and do!) use to track users with startling specificity. Microsoft is just a brand people like to yell about. It's a well-known brand name and people who want to express but not actually show education about digital privacy desperately cling to it to signal they are "IN THE KNOW."
    - pyre 11y ago
      The part you are missing is the more users use Microsoft than OSX. See how many of these people are complaining about being Microsoft users and feeling like they need to ditch Windows. These people probably didn't complain about Apple as much (or at all) because it didn't affect them. Now Microsoft has brought it to their front door, and they are forced to deal with it head-on (note: just accepting / ignoring the situation is also a form of "dealing with it").
    - jmh42 11y ago
      OSX example: Even 7 years ago Little Snitch on OSX was reporting to me every Apple App was trying to establish a connection home every time I opened it. I just blocked it and didn't bother to inspect the packets.

dantillberg 11y ago

Microsoft is pretty good at catering to the desires of enterprises, so you're right, but in the linked article I see at [0] that with a typical consumer license of Windows, I can reduce the "telemetry" level, but only to "Basic" from the default level of "Enhanced" (side note: how is it "enhanced" if it's the default?). While the Enhanced level accounts for a lot of the usage-specific statistics detailed in TFA, Basic still sends a lot of valuable data to Microsoft. And, despite paying for Windows, you can't turn it off unless you get an Enterprise/Academic license. [0]: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx#BKMK_UTC https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85...

serge2k 11y ago
That list looks less like valuable user data and more like basic telemetry data that is mostly useful to anyone trying to provide a good OS experience.
- dantillberg 11y ago
  I did intentionally write "valuable" instead of "intrusive," as you're right -- that is very useful data to aid Microsoft in developing Windows. But as a user, I ought to be able to at least opt out. But typical Windows users cannot, even if they might think that they are by downgrading from Enhanced to Basic.
  - caskance 11y ago
    I think the fact that they call it "basic" rather than "none" makes it abundantly clear that some basic data is still being collected, and you're not completely opting out. Surely there's a limit on how stupid a user can be before you're allowed to stop designing for them.
- marssaxman 11y ago
  Is it my machine, or is it theirs? If they want to do research they can use their own resources.
  - tamana 11y ago
    Why can't you be collaborative for mutual benefit?
    - marssaxman 11y ago
      If they asked nicely, I might consider it. Microsoft is not asking nicely, with Windows 10, so far as I can see; they're just... taking what they want.
  - serge2k 11y ago
    Have you ever worked on consumer software?
    - marssaxman 11y ago
      Yes, but it's not my preference.
caskance 11y ago
I'm objecting to the claim that users are "powerless to stop this [data collection] even if they knew what was happening, and they don't." To the contrary, it's very clear what is being collected and how to turn it off. As well as what you can't disable in cheaper versions, and which versions you need to buy in order to get that option. Obviously consumers would like Microsoft to sell them a product with more features for cheaper. But that's no different from any business ever, yet people are throwing a shitfit all over the internet based primarily on misinformation.
- KirinDave 11y ago
  The shitfit is this sort of cognitive dissonance. As Apple does a lot of this shit without discussing it and has for years, but mysteriously people are comfortable with OSX. And of course, mobile apps are saturated with complex metrics collections. Every major phone app ships with a huge sum of metrics embedded that can be monitored and almost no mobile apps discuss this. Need we even mention web sites and their inescapable universal surveillance of their users? Even if cookies are turned off, there is so much we can (and do!) use to track users with startling specificity. Microsoft is just a brand people like to yell about. It's a well-known brand name and people who want to express but not actually show education about digital privacy desperately cling to it to signal they are "IN THE KNOW."
  - pyre 11y ago
    The part you are missing is the more users use Microsoft than OSX. See how many of these people are complaining about being Microsoft users and feeling like they need to ditch Windows. These people probably didn't complain about Apple as much (or at all) because it didn't affect them. Now Microsoft has brought it to their front door, and they are forced to deal with it head-on (note: just accepting / ignoring the situation is also a form of "dealing with it").
  - jmh42 11y ago
    OSX example: Even 7 years ago Little Snitch on OSX was reporting to me every Apple App was trying to establish a connection home every time I opened it. I just blocked it and didn't bother to inspect the packets.