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I'll agree that all 4 of your non-provocative behaviors should not escalate a situation to the level of deadly force being required. I specifically asked for e

I'll agree that all 4 of your non-provocative behaviors should not escalate a situation to the level of deadly force being required. I specifically asked for examples from the list, because the list seems designed to support a very specific thesis, one that you expressed in this comment: > It happens far too frequently that Americans are killed > by police firearms when they are not posing an immediate > and credible mortal threat. "far too frequently" is a fuzzy number, one that's hard to agree on. How many unjustifiable deaths per year is that? I believe the data in this article is intended to be used as a stand-in for that figure, and I posit that the actual number is dramatically lower than the fuzzy number everyone has in their heads. If you want to really shut up the naysayers, try showing this data: Interactions between civilians and LEOs: __________ Of those, how many involved physical force? __________ Of those, how many resulted in fatalities? __________ Of those, how many were unjustifiable? __________ Of those, how many went unpunished? __________ If that last number is more than a handful a year in the US, I'd be shocked, outraged, and offended. And certainly we should be shocked, outraged and offended for each individual incident of that last kind no matter how many others there are. That being said, if you want to claim that we need "a civil, national conversation" about this, I think the onus should be on you to prove that the last number above has risen to a national crisis level. Maybe it has, but I don't think this article (or even your 4 examples) makes a very good case for it.

bobwaycott 11y ago
It honestly takes very little effort to find "more than a handful" of cases. I've provided four already. That's 2 short of "more than a handful". It's even easier to increase the number if we expand the parameters to citizen deaths at the hands of LEO with or without that death being from a bullet. There's a serious problem with American policing, and its behavior toward the citizenry. I have no interest in, nor am I trying to, "shut up the naysayers". I find naysayers tend to say nay as a rule, and default to any number of shifting goal posts and mental gymnastics to remain convinced there is no problem worth considering seriously. You've just done this yourself—you asked for a single example of an unprovoked death; now you've crafted a tailored list of questions meant to narrow the field of validity based on different parameters (you've now shifted to asking for deaths that are "unjustifiable", whatever that means). When a 12-yr-old boy with a toy gun is shot by police after being on the scene for a few seconds, and the cop doesn't wind up in prison, there is a problem. And that problem extends from bad policing to the justice system as a whole.

bobwaycott 11y ago

It honestly takes very little effort to find "more than a handful" of cases. I've provided four already. That's 2 short of "more than a handful". It's even easier to increase the number if we expand the parameters to citizen deaths at the hands of LEO with or without that death being from a bullet. There's a serious problem with American policing, and its behavior toward the citizenry. I have no interest in, nor am I trying to, "shut up the naysayers". I find naysayers tend to say nay as a rule, and default to any number of shifting goal posts and mental gymnastics to remain convinced there is no problem worth considering seriously. You've just done this yourself—you asked for a single example of an unprovoked death; now you've crafted a tailored list of questions meant to narrow the field of validity based on different parameters (you've now shifted to asking for deaths that are "unjustifiable", whatever that means). When a 12-yr-old boy with a toy gun is shot by police after being on the scene for a few seconds, and the cop doesn't wind up in prison, there is a problem. And that problem extends from bad policing to the justice system as a whole.