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I think the value of a CoC is merely to signal to people who have experienced abuse or disrespect in communities before (which would describe, I think, most wom

I think the value of a CoC is merely to signal to people who have experienced abuse or disrespect in communities before (which would describe, I think, most women and people of color who have participated in technical communities for more than a short time) that the community is on their side when sexists or racists show up. That has some value. It doesn't really matter to the majority, and it doesn't actually alter how people behave (generally), nor does it really alter a project leaders ability to excise a toxic person. But, it does say, "We will excise toxic people. We will try to make you feel welcome here, even if you have been made to feel unwelcome elsewhere." Even if that's all it does (which I think it probably is), it is enough to make it worth doing in most cases. (Which reminds me that I don't have a code of conduct on any of the open source projects or communities I work on, but I'll make it a project for the first quarter of this year.)

WizzleKake 11y ago
which would describe, I think, most women and people of color who have participated in technical communities for more than a short time This is an odd assumption to make.
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  Is it? It may seem that way to a white dude (I'm a white dude, and I suffered from the delusion that tech communities were inclusive for decades), surrounded by white dudes. You're not alone...lots of people think tech is inclusive. I always assumed that our communities were more welcoming than usual, despite the evidence to the contrary in the form of such low historic participation by women and people of color in tech. But, I've been told it is true from enough women and people of color that I believe it to be true. It's been discussed at great lengths by women and people of color on blogs, on mailing lists, on twitter, etc. I'm not sure what it would take to convince you, but I probably don't have the words to do it, so I'm not gonna try. For people who acknowledge that our communities do not have a history of being inclusive, it is probably useful to post a CoC in order to signal that we are aware of that history of sexism and racism and acknowledge our willingness to take responsibility for it when it happens in communities we manage, if even in a small way.
  - mst 11y ago
    The public discussion about this stuff doesn't necessarily justify 'most' but it absolutely demonstrates 'many'. And 'many' seems to me to be quite sufficient to justify CoC adoption as being positive overall.
  - moonchrome 11y ago
    >despite the evidence to the contrary in the form of such low historic participation by women and people of color in tech. Are asians suddenly white and only black people are people of color ? I see asians significantly represented in the tech community (especially India with English history and emigration to west). And they are at all levels of tech from CEO to us regular code monkeys.
    - SwellJoe 11y ago
      Do you believe that because Asian folks have reasonable (maybe even over-) representation in tech, that tech is an inclusive environment for all people of color, as well as women? Edit: And, another thing!...I believe I've personally seen more anti-Asian racism in tech than most other kinds of racism (though the extreme level of sexism in tech far surpasses any racism I've seen). Fake Indian accents and jokes about English skills abound among nerd circles, for example. It may merely be because I know more Asian tech workers than folks from other races and have worked in environments with a reasonably large Asian population. It is possible to ignore racism or sexism and power through and keep doing your job, but it doesn't mean the environment is welcoming or inclusive.
      - moonchrome 11y ago
        >Do you believe that because Asian folks have reasonable (maybe even over-) representation in tech, that tech is an inclusive environment for all people of color, as well as women? IMO tech industry is the most meritocratic sector I've seen, even more the little I've seen from academia. Note - it's far from being some ideal meritocracy, there's plenty of PHB, politics and plain old corporate bullshit, but low barriers to entry, highly competitive environment, high impact work with low iteration time and the scaling model of software really helps steer incentives towards actually hiring the best person for the job. I believe the reason these other groups are not represented in tech is mostly because of factors outside of tech industry (social) and tech industry shouldn't be reaching backwards to support underrepresented groups simply because they are underrepresented. If the society sees a problem with this imbalance then they are free to fix the issue at the source instead of trying to fix a thing that works relatively well.
- mc808 11y ago
  This isn't exactly scientific, but just go over to YouTube and read the comments whenever a woman gives a technical talk. Now imagine a role reversal where, whenever a straight male gives a talk, you can count on it receiving numerous comments from gay men saying they love a guy with brains, or how badly they want to fuck the guy (or that he isn't attractive enough for that), or that he should go back to the garage and fix me a motorcycle. Maybe it's only a small minority of comments, but it doesn't take much to make the whole environment feel hostile.
  - nijiko 11y ago
    As much as it is fun to utilize arbitrary examples, a CoC wouldn't solve Youtube comment issues. See what I mean?
    - alextgordon 11y ago
      And furthermore, the comments can be turned off.
    - mc808 11y ago
      I just pulled up a video that I remember having particularly bad comments, and the comments were gone. I guess that channel does have a code of conduct, even if it's not formalized. I don't know that publishing a CoC document "solves" anything, but at the very least it acknowledges that the sort of conduct I was illustrating does exist and should be discouraged. Perhaps it's along the same lines as the "don't piss in my pool" sign. Some visitors may see it as a sign that you care about water quality and will feel safer jumping in. Others might wonder if it indicates that a lot of people do piss in your pool.
      - nijiko 11y ago
        Arbitrary notions of safety and conduct. People know how they should conduct themselves, and those who will do something wrong don't care. Arbitrary notions of power. Does enacting this over the members of this community improve anything? No. There are no issues within it to begin with. Nobody is rampantly "pissing in the pool" on a daily basis, hell even monthly basis at that. Arbitrary notions of acknowledgment. Do you read through every ToS you've agreed to? No.
DannyBee 11y ago
"I think the value of a CoC is merely to signal to people who have experienced abuse or disrespect in communities before (which would describe, I think, most women and people of color who have participated in technical communities for more than a short time) that the community is on their side when sexists or racists show up. " If a COC becomes a baseline requirement for people to run projects and attract contributors, ISTM the people who don't care will just add COC's, and never enforce them. You say "But, it does say, "We will excise toxic people. We will try to make you feel welcome here, even if you have been made to feel unwelcome elsewhere."" It does not actually do that. It's one level removed from that. It's "we say we will excise toxic people.". It in fact, may be the case that you go to ask them to enforce it, and they say "sorry, don't care", even with a COC. Then you are back to square 1. You essentially are trying to use the COC as a proxy for "communities that will care enough to put a stop to things" and i'm pretty much 100% it will not achieve this goal.
- deleted 11y ago
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- SwellJoe 11y ago
  Of course a CoC can't make a community actually do anything. These are Open Source communities we're talking about here, and nobody can make anyone do anything at all. You're alleging that a CoC is meaningless, but why implement a CoC, as a community, if you don't actually want more women and people of color becoming involved in your projects? The CoC is the signal saying, "We, as a community, want you to feel welcome here." That's all I'm saying it does, and all I'm suggesting it can do, and I say that's sufficient cause to implement a CoC, if you want more women and people of color in your community. So, to repeat, a CoC is a signal of desire to be inclusive. It is not a law, it is not a guarantee, it won't make assholes stop being assholes. It is a sign on the door saying, "We're gonna try to be welcoming. Come on in."
  - DannyBee 11y ago
    "You're alleging that a CoC is meaningless, but why implement a CoC, as a community, if you don't actually want more women and people of color becoming involved in your projects? The CoC is the signal saying, "We, as a community, want you to feel welcome here."" See the part where i directly answer this: "If a COC becomes a baseline requirement for people to run projects and attract contributors," IE if people stop going to projects without COC's, people will add COC's. I'm not sure why you think anything else will happen. "So, to repeat, a CoC is a signal of desire to be inclusive." It is this second. As I said, if it becomes a thing people look for, it will no longer be that, because everyone will just add them and ignore them. It will no longer be a signal for what you are looking for. It will achieve precisely nothing. Again, I'm honestly befuddled why you think anything else would happen Do you really think normal people trying to start projects are going to say "well, i really want to attract contributors of all kinds, and it seems i have to have a COC, that i don't care about, to do that, but i guess it would just be wrong to have a COC if i don't care?" Or do you think they are just going to say "well, i really want to attract contributors of all kinds, i better add a COC that i don't really care about". I mean, this is already happening. How many projects are like our OP, and basically go and say "well, i should probably add a COC, but i don't really care". You need look no further than things like yellow/pink ribbons/flag pins senators wear/etc to see what will happen. These things were once signals of people who cared. Now they are just social norms.
dmgbrn 11y ago
This, absolutely. Communities can be healthy without a CoC, or unhealthy with one. But having a CoC sends a big, clear message to women and other groups frequently marginalized in the tech scene that your project is healthy and welcoming. Here's why that's a big deal: joining an open source project is an investment. If you are a woman, or black, or trans, or god forbid, some combination thereof in tech, you really don't want to become invested in a community that will at some point treat you like shit. And let's be real guys, many, many communities do treat women and minorities like shit. A CoC, and just as importantly, the discussion surrounding one, is a simple sign that a community is a place where you can be a woman or a minority and contribute to open source without fear of harassment, abuse, marginalization, and other dangers faced by non-white-dudes in tech.
- deleted 11y ago
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WizzleKake 11y ago

which would describe, I think, most women and people of color who have participated in technical communities for more than a short time This is an odd assumption to make.

SwellJoe 11y ago
Is it? It may seem that way to a white dude (I'm a white dude, and I suffered from the delusion that tech communities were inclusive for decades), surrounded by white dudes. You're not alone...lots of people think tech is inclusive. I always assumed that our communities were more welcoming than usual, despite the evidence to the contrary in the form of such low historic participation by women and people of color in tech. But, I've been told it is true from enough women and people of color that I believe it to be true. It's been discussed at great lengths by women and people of color on blogs, on mailing lists, on twitter, etc. I'm not sure what it would take to convince you, but I probably don't have the words to do it, so I'm not gonna try. For people who acknowledge that our communities do not have a history of being inclusive, it is probably useful to post a CoC in order to signal that we are aware of that history of sexism and racism and acknowledge our willingness to take responsibility for it when it happens in communities we manage, if even in a small way.
- mst 11y ago
  The public discussion about this stuff doesn't necessarily justify 'most' but it absolutely demonstrates 'many'. And 'many' seems to me to be quite sufficient to justify CoC adoption as being positive overall.
- moonchrome 11y ago
  >despite the evidence to the contrary in the form of such low historic participation by women and people of color in tech. Are asians suddenly white and only black people are people of color ? I see asians significantly represented in the tech community (especially India with English history and emigration to west). And they are at all levels of tech from CEO to us regular code monkeys.
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    Do you believe that because Asian folks have reasonable (maybe even over-) representation in tech, that tech is an inclusive environment for all people of color, as well as women? Edit: And, another thing!...I believe I've personally seen more anti-Asian racism in tech than most other kinds of racism (though the extreme level of sexism in tech far surpasses any racism I've seen). Fake Indian accents and jokes about English skills abound among nerd circles, for example. It may merely be because I know more Asian tech workers than folks from other races and have worked in environments with a reasonably large Asian population. It is possible to ignore racism or sexism and power through and keep doing your job, but it doesn't mean the environment is welcoming or inclusive.
    - moonchrome 11y ago
      >Do you believe that because Asian folks have reasonable (maybe even over-) representation in tech, that tech is an inclusive environment for all people of color, as well as women? IMO tech industry is the most meritocratic sector I've seen, even more the little I've seen from academia. Note - it's far from being some ideal meritocracy, there's plenty of PHB, politics and plain old corporate bullshit, but low barriers to entry, highly competitive environment, high impact work with low iteration time and the scaling model of software really helps steer incentives towards actually hiring the best person for the job. I believe the reason these other groups are not represented in tech is mostly because of factors outside of tech industry (social) and tech industry shouldn't be reaching backwards to support underrepresented groups simply because they are underrepresented. If the society sees a problem with this imbalance then they are free to fix the issue at the source instead of trying to fix a thing that works relatively well.
mc808 11y ago
This isn't exactly scientific, but just go over to YouTube and read the comments whenever a woman gives a technical talk. Now imagine a role reversal where, whenever a straight male gives a talk, you can count on it receiving numerous comments from gay men saying they love a guy with brains, or how badly they want to fuck the guy (or that he isn't attractive enough for that), or that he should go back to the garage and fix me a motorcycle. Maybe it's only a small minority of comments, but it doesn't take much to make the whole environment feel hostile.
- nijiko 11y ago
  As much as it is fun to utilize arbitrary examples, a CoC wouldn't solve Youtube comment issues. See what I mean?
  - alextgordon 11y ago
    And furthermore, the comments can be turned off.
  - mc808 11y ago
    I just pulled up a video that I remember having particularly bad comments, and the comments were gone. I guess that channel does have a code of conduct, even if it's not formalized. I don't know that publishing a CoC document "solves" anything, but at the very least it acknowledges that the sort of conduct I was illustrating does exist and should be discouraged. Perhaps it's along the same lines as the "don't piss in my pool" sign. Some visitors may see it as a sign that you care about water quality and will feel safer jumping in. Others might wonder if it indicates that a lot of people do piss in your pool.
    - nijiko 11y ago
      Arbitrary notions of safety and conduct. People know how they should conduct themselves, and those who will do something wrong don't care. Arbitrary notions of power. Does enacting this over the members of this community improve anything? No. There are no issues within it to begin with. Nobody is rampantly "pissing in the pool" on a daily basis, hell even monthly basis at that. Arbitrary notions of acknowledgment. Do you read through every ToS you've agreed to? No.

DannyBee 11y ago

"I think the value of a CoC is merely to signal to people who have experienced abuse or disrespect in communities before (which would describe, I think, most women and people of color who have participated in technical communities for more than a short time) that the community is on their side when sexists or racists show up. " If a COC becomes a baseline requirement for people to run projects and attract contributors, ISTM the people who don't care will just add COC's, and never enforce them. You say "But, it does say, "We will excise toxic people. We will try to make you feel welcome here, even if you have been made to feel unwelcome elsewhere."" It does not actually do that. It's one level removed from that. It's "we say we will excise toxic people.". It in fact, may be the case that you go to ask them to enforce it, and they say "sorry, don't care", even with a COC. Then you are back to square 1. You essentially are trying to use the COC as a proxy for "communities that will care enough to put a stop to things" and i'm pretty much 100% it will not achieve this goal.

deleted 11y ago
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SwellJoe 11y ago
Of course a CoC can't make a community actually do anything. These are Open Source communities we're talking about here, and nobody can make anyone do anything at all. You're alleging that a CoC is meaningless, but why implement a CoC, as a community, if you don't actually want more women and people of color becoming involved in your projects? The CoC is the signal saying, "We, as a community, want you to feel welcome here." That's all I'm saying it does, and all I'm suggesting it can do, and I say that's sufficient cause to implement a CoC, if you want more women and people of color in your community. So, to repeat, a CoC is a signal of desire to be inclusive. It is not a law, it is not a guarantee, it won't make assholes stop being assholes. It is a sign on the door saying, "We're gonna try to be welcoming. Come on in."
- DannyBee 11y ago
  "You're alleging that a CoC is meaningless, but why implement a CoC, as a community, if you don't actually want more women and people of color becoming involved in your projects? The CoC is the signal saying, "We, as a community, want you to feel welcome here."" See the part where i directly answer this: "If a COC becomes a baseline requirement for people to run projects and attract contributors," IE if people stop going to projects without COC's, people will add COC's. I'm not sure why you think anything else will happen. "So, to repeat, a CoC is a signal of desire to be inclusive." It is this second. As I said, if it becomes a thing people look for, it will no longer be that, because everyone will just add them and ignore them. It will no longer be a signal for what you are looking for. It will achieve precisely nothing. Again, I'm honestly befuddled why you think anything else would happen Do you really think normal people trying to start projects are going to say "well, i really want to attract contributors of all kinds, and it seems i have to have a COC, that i don't care about, to do that, but i guess it would just be wrong to have a COC if i don't care?" Or do you think they are just going to say "well, i really want to attract contributors of all kinds, i better add a COC that i don't really care about". I mean, this is already happening. How many projects are like our OP, and basically go and say "well, i should probably add a COC, but i don't really care". You need look no further than things like yellow/pink ribbons/flag pins senators wear/etc to see what will happen. These things were once signals of people who cared. Now they are just social norms.

dmgbrn 11y ago

This, absolutely. Communities can be healthy without a CoC, or unhealthy with one. But having a CoC sends a big, clear message to women and other groups frequently marginalized in the tech scene that your project is healthy and welcoming. Here's why that's a big deal: joining an open source project is an investment. If you are a woman, or black, or trans, or god forbid, some combination thereof in tech, you really don't want to become invested in a community that will at some point treat you like shit. And let's be real guys, many, many communities do treat women and minorities like shit. A CoC, and just as importantly, the discussion surrounding one, is a simple sign that a community is a place where you can be a woman or a minority and contribute to open source without fear of harassment, abuse, marginalization, and other dangers faced by non-white-dudes in tech.

deleted 11y ago
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