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North Korea makes more sense when you know its roots
- vonnik 11y agoThis is actually false. The leaders of North Korea fought to liberate the peninsula from the Japanese, while many of the leaders of South Korea were officers in the Japanese imperial army. For a brief moment after WWII, the North Korean freedom fighters were the good guys. No, obviously, the tables have turned. But that does not remove the stain of collaboration from the South Korean elite.
- bryanlarsen 11y agoIs that necessarily contradictory, though? It seems quite likely that the North Koreans opposed the Japanese to get rid of the oppressor rather than for ideological reasons. They could quite easily have internalized the ideology of their enemy while they were fighting them.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago> The leaders of North Korea fought to liberate the peninsula from the Japanese What "leaders of North Korea"? The peninsula was not divided until the end of World War II and the surrender of Japan. This sounds like a fiction invented by the regime.
- mikeash 11y agoRead it as "the people who subsequently became the leaders of North Korea," not "the people who led North Korea at the time."
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y agoWell, even that sounds suspect. Of course the regime would say that, but is it true? I recall the Democratic German Republic (DDR) said the same thing.
- mikeash 11y agoFrom a quick browse of Wikipedia, it certainly looks true of Kim Il-sung. I'm too lazy to look up any other early NK leadership, but it certainly seems plausible. Leadership of a liberated country coming from those who fought against the occupier isn't unusual. China, France, and Yugoslavia all come to mind off the top of my head. China did it twice, with the Communists on the mainland and the Nationalists in Taiwan.
- vonnik 11y agoIf you're interested in the topic, Bruce Cumings's The Korean War is a good read. http://www.amazon.com/The-Korean-War-History-Chronicles/ http://www.amazon.com/The-Korean-War-History-Chronicles/ I'm not a professional historian, and just beginning to learn about relations between Korea, Japan and China over the last 150 years. Lots of surprises...
- mikeash 11y agoThanks for the recommendation. Your link is busted, here's a working one for anyone else who happens across this: http://www.amazon.com/The-Korean-War-History-Chronicles/dp/081297896X http://www.amazon.com/The-Korean-War-History-Chronicles/dp/0... It looks like it's the /dp/081297896X part that's important, and the title in the URL can actually be deleted. Anyway, I grabbed the Kindle sample and will see how it looks!
- yongjik 11y agoYes. Kim Ilsung did fight against Japan. (Whether his fight had any effect on Japan is a separate matter; I don't know history well enough to answer that.) While South Korea's first president Rhee Syngman was a leader of the "Provisional Government of the Republic of Korea" (which later became South Korea), he did not fight Japan in the battlefield, and his role in the independence movement was limited. Worse, after Japan surrendered he actively made friends with former traitors, assassinating political opponents and murdering people for being communist. He is almost certainly behind the assassination of Kim Gu, a right-wing leader of the independence movement and one of the most respected Korean politicians during the 20th century. History of North Korea is probably the most extreme case of a young revolutionary turning into a despot himself.
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- Symmetry 11y agoThe early leaders of the United States fought to liberate their country from Great Britain but that doesn't mean they weren't strongly influenced by British ideas about government and rights.
- mikeash 11y agoThose leaders by and large were British. The revolution was essentially about establishing a separate cultural and political identity where there previously was none. That's different from a situation where a foreign invader conquers and occupies the land, and people who already lived there fight to throw them out.
- rawTruthHurts 11y ago>The revolution was essentially about establishing a separate cultural and political identity where there previously was none. And banks, don't forget about banks.
- protomyth 11y agoThe early leaders of the United States originally wanted the rights due them as British subjects. It turned into a full revolution later.
- ramgorur 11y agostupid article, sounds like those retarded reptilian conspiracy theorist garbage. none of those north korean government propaganda relies on racial purity or superiority, not even implicitly, the Juche ideology has nothing to do with race. The divinity of a ruler is, I think, culturally influenced. "Kim on a solar halo" does not imply a sun god.
- golergka 11y ago> Americans misunderstand this country. Most assumed the crying was a sort of mass performance Wait. Do americans really think that or did author purposefully pretended that americans are idiots to deliver a point?
- electricblue 11y agoI think people did assume that because from what little experience Americans have with NK, much of the customs we would consider voluntary (bowing before statues, etc) are compulsory even for western visitors. It's not much of a leap to imagine that if you're a NK and a camera is on you, not behaving the right way could be dangerous.
- golergka 11y agoOK, you don't have any experience with NK, but what about brainwashing and propaganda in general? Do you, like, have no concept of that?
- electricblue 11y agoThe only way we have any idea of the psychology of North Koreans is from highly imperfect anecdotal accounts from defectors. From those the question of how authentic these displays are is complicated. One example of a starving boy singing "Nothing to Envy" for tips comes to mind. There are layers of complexity and contradiction there that are impossible for outsiders to completely understand.
- golergka 11y agoIn this particular comment, I wasn't talking about Norrth Korea, but a more general principle of propaganda and brainwashing. NK isn't the only country with this leader cult, you know.
- EliRivers 11y agoWithout disagreeing with your argument, your particular example is flawed; on my tour (2012), a number of people declined to bow to the statues and it was fine. It's certainly true that some behaviour is unacceptable, but choosing not to bow to the statues was utterly inconsequential.
- zoner 11y agoA read Mein Kampf in two different language, also I'm studying the works of Julius Evola. I have never read principles there like the death of head of the state would mean the death of the nation. There's lots of talk about hierarchy and of course, absolute power (but it means absolute responsibility too). North Korea is rather an extremist bolshevik state, rather than fascist and also a very dangerous one, but making a parallel with Japan is not so smart. It's very far away from Yukio Mishima and so.
- Symmetry 11y agoIt's certainly true that you didn't see the deification of the head of state as part of Nazism or Italian fascism. But it was very much part of the imperial Japanese ideology which might or might not be fascist depending on how you define the term. So you could easily argue that Japanese or North Koreans aren't really fascists. You can even argue about whether the Nazis were truly fascist but where their own thing. I can't say I'm particularly familiar with Yukio Mishima and his coup attempt but I imagine the ideologies have to evolve when they don't have a Kempeitai working on their side behind the scenes.
- mariojv 11y agoWas the Japanese occupation of Korea really justified in racial terms? I'm skeptical of parts of this article when it refers to Japanese imperial ideology as "fascism." It was most certainly extremely right-wing, but I think extreme nationalism + imperialism are more accurate descriptions, especially since Japan didn't join the Axis until decades after Korea was annexed. I thought the motivation for the colonization of Korea was more resource scarcity in Japan and a desire to compete with Western powers through empire building. To justify their actions I think Korean society was portrayed as "less civilized" which is more a statement about cultural and political norms than race, although those portrayals can probably slip into a racist ideology pretty quickly. It seems like the "official" policy was different, at least: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Equality_Proposal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Equality_Proposal I'm not trying to portray devil's advocate at all, just actually asking whether what the article portrays is accurate. I think the early 20th century actions of imperial Japan were abhorrent, but it's important to at least try to understand the ideology of the time as it was discussed and understood.
- hitekker 11y agoI can't speak to all your points: but yes, the Japanese were racist against the Koreans. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Investigation_of_Global_Policy_with_the_Yamato_Race_as_Nucleus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Investigation_of_Global_Pol... >A a family has harmony and reciprocity, but with a clear-cut hierarchy, the Japanese, as a purportedly racially superior people, were destined to rule Asia "eternally" as the head of the family of Asian nations. And also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperit... >It explicitly states the superiority of the Japanese over other Asian races and provides evidence that the Sphere was inherently hierarchical, including the Japanese Empire's true intention of domination over the Asian continent and Pacific Ocean. > The militarists saw everything only in a Japanese perspective and, even worse, they insisted that all others dealing with them should do the same. For them there was only one way to do a thing, the Japanese way; only one goal and interest, the Japanese interest; only one destiny for the East Asian countries, to become so many Manchukuos or Koreas tied forever to Japan. These racial impositions... made any real understanding between the Japanese militarists and the people of our region virtually impossible. Interestingly, even Japanese propaganda asserting racial harmony itself was tinged with racism. Compare this picture of an imaginary pro-japanese chinese demonstration, http://chineseposters.net/gallery/e27-165.php http://chineseposters.net/gallery/e27-165.php with another picture of japanese soldiers rescuing the chinese: http://chineseposters.net/gallery/e27-166.php http://chineseposters.net/gallery/e27-166.php The faces of the Chinese are ugly; nowhere near as refined or as elegant as that of the depicted Japanese in the second. One could argue this is style, but in a work that's intended to be seen by huge volumes of people, this particular detail is one of many that points to overwhelming racism. Edit: made a content edit upon further research.
- ekianjo 11y agoMmmm, highly dubious this has anything to do with Japan. I mean, it's not like every other dictatorship under the Sun that lasted long enough does not share the same aspects. Mao was still very much revered like a God in China, the same goes for Stalin in Russia - so, is this guy saying Japanese Imperialism is at the root of all of this ? Seriously?
- kyllo 11y agoAll of the western political ideology (Colonialism, Communism, Fascism, Democracy) that came to Korea (and China) came by way of Japan. The Japanese Empire was the first polity in East Asia to adopt and apply Western political concepts to their government. Large numbers of Korean and Chinese scholars went to Japan to study and brought these concepts (as well as the vocabulary itself) from Japan back to their native countries with them. As a result, essentially all modern political thought in East Asia was tinted by Japanese imperialist ideology.
- russ0chen 11y agoI think you're forgetting about the British occupation of Hong Kong.
- kyllo 11y agoYes--relevant for China, but it had basically nothing to do with Korea.
- ekianjo 11y ago> All of the western political ideology (Colonialism, Communism, Fascism, Democracy) that came to Korea (and China) came by way of Japan. Erm... Westerners were present in China way before they even came to Japan - you seem to forget Japan has an isolationism policy for several hundred years that explicitly restricted foreign influence until the late 1800s. If anything, China was way more exposed to any Western culture before the ships of Perry even sailed to Japan. British occupation of HK was from 1841. And let's not forget Singapore, with Raffles as early as the early 1800s. But yeah, "everything went through Japan" ?
- hitekker 11y agoThis viewpoint is described in detail in the book, The Cleanest Race: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004EWETZW/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?ie=UTF8&btkr=1 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004EWETZW/ref=dp-kindle-re... It supports the theory of North Korean racial fascism premised upon WW2 Japanese Fascism, by analyzing language (The dramatic superiority of the "Mother" word over the "Father" word in the North Korean dictionary) and historical trends (the movement of korean propagandists from south korea to north korea following the end of WW2)
- topspin 11y agoThe Khmer Rouge also indulged notions of racial and ethnic `purity' as they persecuted Chinese, Vietnamese and others. Shall we imagine the Khmer Rouge was also some heretofore unrecognized manifestation of `fascism'? Attempts to salvage the intellectuals' opiate produces a great deal of nonsense.
- awl130 11y agoThis article, and especially its title, is extremely misleading. Kim Il Sung was a guerrilla fighter AGAINST the Japanese in northern China, winning accolades as a part of the Chinese communist army before taking over north Korea. Leaders of North Korea in the early days were chosen based on their loyalty to the communist party. It may be true that the DPRK copied items of propaganda from Japan. But to say that the DPRK was based on imperial Japan is like saying the Nazi party was based on the Roman Empire (from which it lifted the eagle symbol), or worse yet, the Indo-European civilization (from which it took the swastika). Certain design elements and terminology were probably copied, but they were taken for practical purposes and had little to do with ideology.
- mc32 11y agoYeah, Vox is losing credibility. This explanation sounds very forced in the face of how communism coöpted the tools of worship to retrain them on the secular state and to some degree the cult of personality. So, it's like they, vox, want to make this explanation work, because it's plausible. I imagine if they put some effort into it, could find another half dozen plausible explanations.
- MrZongle2 11y ago"Yeah, Vox is losing credibility." Serious question: did they ever have credibility? Other than being able to apparently fund a site and pay (?) writers, is there something else there I just wasn't aware of?
- OopsCriticality 11y agoThey have none in my eyes. I used to email them pointing out simple factual errors in their articles (i.e., stuff that a quick Google or Wiki search would find). Never once received a response back. Almost always, there would be silent updates to their articles correcting the errors... I refuse to succumb to Gell-Mann Amnesia: if Vox's quality control is crap on issues that are the small set I am informed on, then I am forced to conclude it's crap in other areas too. Aside from the QC failures, failing to clearly disclose the corrections strikes me as difficult to defend journalistically.
- arafa 11y agoSome of the claims in this article are rebutted by the book A Kim Jong Il Production (http://www.amazon.com/Kim-Jong-Il-Production-Extraordinary-Kidnapped/dp/1250054265 http://www.amazon.com/Kim-Jong-Il-Production-Extraordinary-K...), an excellent read. There is a lengthy discussion on how the book was sourced and a dedication to fact-checking and information accuracy. In it, they describe how many people inside actually do recognize their situation and how they're forced to act against how they feel. The crying at Kim Jong Il's funeral, in particular, is addressed and the book mentions how North Koreans that didn't look sincere enough in their grief faced punishment.
- Htsthbjig 11y agoWow, this man is convinced that North Korea is a far right country. For me right has a total different meaning from Japan culture. In fact left and right comes from France cultural system. It looks like this man personally attributes everything bad to right. Being an authoritarian regime is right(for this man), but the soviet Union was authoritarian, like any other communist regime, fro Castro to Chavez. Being xenophobic now is right too so with this Sleight of Hand Khmer Rouge were not left, but far right too. For me "right" means the political group that favors free markets, free men and bourgeois class, nothing to do with Japan before WWII.