4 ms·

So the problem with this gambling site, which defends itself as being a game of skill, is that some players are far more skilled than others and so win regularl

by cfcef 11y ago

So the problem with this gambling site, which defends itself as being a game of skill, is that some players are far more skilled than others and so win regularly. I see.

gk1 11y ago
A game of skill is not the opposite of gambling. See card counting.
- hnal943 11y ago
  His point is that currently in the US "games of skill" are legal where "games of chance" are not. Fantasy is legal because it is classified as a game of skill where black jack is not.
  - theseatoms 11y ago
    In reality, success in most games comes from a combination of luck and skill. Part of "skill" is dealing with and capitalizing on the randomness of "luck". In practice, who typically ends up drawing this distinction? Appellate judges?
    - fleitz 11y ago
      The skill you point out is also generally luck, the only time skill comes into play is when you're doing something that the casino will kick you out / stop offering those terms
      - mod 11y ago
        Not true in the case of poker. It's also misleading since in, for instance, blackjack, even when you play at the highest (casino-allowed) skill, you will lose. That's not true of poker or DFS. There's still plenty of nuance (luck prevails in the short term while skill prevails in the long term).
  - ssharp 11y ago
    Fantasy is legal in the U.S. because lobbyists convinced lawmakers to carve out an exemption when they dropped the ax on online poker.
  - ooemog 11y ago
    Fantasy is legal because of this text of in the UIGEA `(D) does not include-- `(ix) participation in any fantasy or simulation sports game or educational game or contest in which (if the game or contest involves a team or teams) no fantasy or simulation sports team is based on the current membership of an actual team that is a member of an amateur or professional sports organization (as those terms are defined in section 3701 of title 28) and that meets the following conditions: `(I) All prizes and awards offered to winning participants are established and made known to the participants in advance of the game or contest and their value is not determined by the number of participants or the amount of any fees paid by those participants. `(II) All winning outcomes reflect the relative knowledge and skill of the participants and are determined predominantly by accumulated statistical results of the performance of individuals (athletes in the case of sports events) in multiple real-world sporting or other events. `(III) No winning outcome is based-- `(aa) on the score, point-spread, or any performance or performances of any single real-world team or any combination of such teams; or `(bb) solely on any single performance of an individual athlete in any single real-world sporting or other event.
    - sjg007 11y ago
      Isn't the whole fantasy thing based on: `(III) No winning outcome is based-- (aa) "... performances of ... any combination of such teams;" ` So illegal?
- FilterSweep 11y ago
  counting cards in a casino or professional setting will get you blacklisted and thrown out of said casino. the preventative measures against card counting are extensive, to say the least. Your example still works, but it's not applicable in America, where the daily sports issues arise.
- amalcon 11y ago
  Or, more directly, poker.
pavel_lishin 11y ago
Another problem is that the site itself does not punish rule-breakers who use scripts to gain an unfair advantage. If I bet you five dollars that I can win a foot race, and then get on a motorcycle, I didn't win because I'm more skilled.
- basseq 11y ago
  Not a great example with the motorcycle, but I agree. There's a difference between people who exploit the architecture of the game vs. people who automate sophisticated strategies. An interesting parallel would be the HFT "market-makers": I could argue that's exploiting the architecture of the markets, not "playing the game".
- mesozoic 11y ago
  Scripts aren't against the rules in fact Draft kings specifically allows them for some purposes but not for others.
- fleitz 11y ago
  The problem is it's a motorcycle race and you're on foot the only thing is you're so bad a math you don't even realize you're in a motorcycle race. This is the same issue that people have with card counting, wheel spin analysis, prng analysis, hft, dice throwing, etc. People who are good at math use that skill to make games of skill of what people incorrectly believe are games of luck. Rich people always get upset when they think they are fucking over someone dumb when really they are getting fucked over by someone extremely smart. Then they write articles about how unfair it was that they were too dumb to realize the game wasn't rigged how they intended to rig it. Hence we end up with articles like this, that it's 'unfair' that the author is a poor gambler and repeatedly accepts wagers that are not in his favor. He even made a spreadsheet of how dumb he is and then refuses to accept the math that proves he's dumb.
basseq 11y ago
You're not wrong, though there's more than that. I never understood the "game of skill" argument, though. Pure gambling (e.g., flipping a coin) has no skill whatsoever. Due to the chaotic nature of the world, nothing is pure skill (simple commerce, e.g., still has small risk). Poker, online sports, etc. has an element of skill to it, but also an element of risk. I can run endless statistics on blackjack hands to improve my odds of winning, but they're still odds. In the same way, DFS power players can have a massive advantage, but if Tom Brady breaks his collarbone in the first quarter, it's still luck. You are gambling that your skills are better than the other guy's (and the chaotic nature of the universe won't screw you). I think DFS fails in two ways: 1. Corruption - All the stories in the last 6 months about FanDuel employees using insider knowledge to gain an edge on DraftKings, for example. That is screwing the fan, pure and simple. 2. Creating a Predatory Environment - The issue here is allowing power players to "rape and pillage regular players". In the same way that I'm not going to enter the WSOP, I'm going to have a much better experience playing against those at my skill level. You could probably throw "false advertising" in there, too, but we'll let the FCC deal with that.
- maqr 11y ago
  > I never understood the "game of skill" argument, though. I'm not sure if this is really on-topic, but I think you'll find this interesting if you're not aware of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill_testing_question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill_testing_question
- Spooky23 11y ago
  You're missing the corruption of the game angle as well. Fantasy sports is worse than most forms of gambling because the scope of stakeholders is so broad. With lots of legit, liquid money in play, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you can corrupt players and coaches to massage the stats, or those same players and coaches can participate through proxies. With horse racing, which is the closest thing to this stuff, there are a few different sets of stakeholders with different interests. Owners, trainers and jockeys who are cheating are pretty easy to identify. End of the day, you're better off trusting the dice.
socialist_coder 11y ago
If I played DFS and I got matched up against pros I would be pretty angry. They make it seem like you are going to be matched up against people just like you, but you aren't. You're matched up against pros, because they submit thousands of lineups so they can maximize their chances of playing against as many non-pros as possible. It's like going to your weekly office poker game and, after losing, discovering that you're actually playing against pros, not your coworkers. And to make it worse, the pros are doing this in hundreds of games all at the same time! If you had bothered to read the article, this would have been apparent.
- jpindar 11y ago
  But you can choose to enter games that are only against your friends - I do every week. (There's nothing physically keeping a stranger from joining our game, but since they don't know the link, and we all enter as soon as one of us creates the contest and sends us all the link, it's unlikely.) OK, I also enter other games, but in those, I typically go for the games that are small, and almost filled, so I can look at the list of other players and only enter if there are no very experienced players there.

by cfcef 11y ago

So the problem with this gambling site, which defends itself as being a game of skill, is that some players are far more skilled than others and so win regularly. I see.

gk1 11y ago

A game of skill is not the opposite of gambling. See card counting.

hnal943 11y ago
His point is that currently in the US "games of skill" are legal where "games of chance" are not. Fantasy is legal because it is classified as a game of skill where black jack is not.
- theseatoms 11y ago
  In reality, success in most games comes from a combination of luck and skill. Part of "skill" is dealing with and capitalizing on the randomness of "luck". In practice, who typically ends up drawing this distinction? Appellate judges?
  - fleitz 11y ago
    The skill you point out is also generally luck, the only time skill comes into play is when you're doing something that the casino will kick you out / stop offering those terms
    - mod 11y ago
      Not true in the case of poker. It's also misleading since in, for instance, blackjack, even when you play at the highest (casino-allowed) skill, you will lose. That's not true of poker or DFS. There's still plenty of nuance (luck prevails in the short term while skill prevails in the long term).
- ssharp 11y ago
  Fantasy is legal in the U.S. because lobbyists convinced lawmakers to carve out an exemption when they dropped the ax on online poker.
- ooemog 11y ago
  Fantasy is legal because of this text of in the UIGEA `(D) does not include-- `(ix) participation in any fantasy or simulation sports game or educational game or contest in which (if the game or contest involves a team or teams) no fantasy or simulation sports team is based on the current membership of an actual team that is a member of an amateur or professional sports organization (as those terms are defined in section 3701 of title 28) and that meets the following conditions: `(I) All prizes and awards offered to winning participants are established and made known to the participants in advance of the game or contest and their value is not determined by the number of participants or the amount of any fees paid by those participants. `(II) All winning outcomes reflect the relative knowledge and skill of the participants and are determined predominantly by accumulated statistical results of the performance of individuals (athletes in the case of sports events) in multiple real-world sporting or other events. `(III) No winning outcome is based-- `(aa) on the score, point-spread, or any performance or performances of any single real-world team or any combination of such teams; or `(bb) solely on any single performance of an individual athlete in any single real-world sporting or other event.
  - sjg007 11y ago
    Isn't the whole fantasy thing based on: `(III) No winning outcome is based-- (aa) "... performances of ... any combination of such teams;" ` So illegal?
FilterSweep 11y ago
counting cards in a casino or professional setting will get you blacklisted and thrown out of said casino. the preventative measures against card counting are extensive, to say the least. Your example still works, but it's not applicable in America, where the daily sports issues arise.
amalcon 11y ago
Or, more directly, poker.

pavel_lishin 11y ago

Another problem is that the site itself does not punish rule-breakers who use scripts to gain an unfair advantage. If I bet you five dollars that I can win a foot race, and then get on a motorcycle, I didn't win because I'm more skilled.

basseq 11y ago
Not a great example with the motorcycle, but I agree. There's a difference between people who exploit the architecture of the game vs. people who automate sophisticated strategies. An interesting parallel would be the HFT "market-makers": I could argue that's exploiting the architecture of the markets, not "playing the game".
mesozoic 11y ago
Scripts aren't against the rules in fact Draft kings specifically allows them for some purposes but not for others.
fleitz 11y ago
The problem is it's a motorcycle race and you're on foot the only thing is you're so bad a math you don't even realize you're in a motorcycle race. This is the same issue that people have with card counting, wheel spin analysis, prng analysis, hft, dice throwing, etc. People who are good at math use that skill to make games of skill of what people incorrectly believe are games of luck. Rich people always get upset when they think they are fucking over someone dumb when really they are getting fucked over by someone extremely smart. Then they write articles about how unfair it was that they were too dumb to realize the game wasn't rigged how they intended to rig it. Hence we end up with articles like this, that it's 'unfair' that the author is a poor gambler and repeatedly accepts wagers that are not in his favor. He even made a spreadsheet of how dumb he is and then refuses to accept the math that proves he's dumb.

basseq 11y ago

You're not wrong, though there's more than that. I never understood the "game of skill" argument, though. Pure gambling (e.g., flipping a coin) has no skill whatsoever. Due to the chaotic nature of the world, nothing is pure skill (simple commerce, e.g., still has small risk). Poker, online sports, etc. has an element of skill to it, but also an element of risk. I can run endless statistics on blackjack hands to improve my odds of winning, but they're still odds. In the same way, DFS power players can have a massive advantage, but if Tom Brady breaks his collarbone in the first quarter, it's still luck. You are gambling that your skills are better than the other guy's (and the chaotic nature of the universe won't screw you). I think DFS fails in two ways: 1. Corruption - All the stories in the last 6 months about FanDuel employees using insider knowledge to gain an edge on DraftKings, for example. That is screwing the fan, pure and simple. 2. Creating a Predatory Environment - The issue here is allowing power players to "rape and pillage regular players". In the same way that I'm not going to enter the WSOP, I'm going to have a much better experience playing against those at my skill level. You could probably throw "false advertising" in there, too, but we'll let the FCC deal with that.

maqr 11y ago
> I never understood the "game of skill" argument, though. I'm not sure if this is really on-topic, but I think you'll find this interesting if you're not aware of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill_testing_question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill_testing_question
Spooky23 11y ago
You're missing the corruption of the game angle as well. Fantasy sports is worse than most forms of gambling because the scope of stakeholders is so broad. With lots of legit, liquid money in play, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you can corrupt players and coaches to massage the stats, or those same players and coaches can participate through proxies. With horse racing, which is the closest thing to this stuff, there are a few different sets of stakeholders with different interests. Owners, trainers and jockeys who are cheating are pretty easy to identify. End of the day, you're better off trusting the dice.

socialist_coder 11y ago

If I played DFS and I got matched up against pros I would be pretty angry. They make it seem like you are going to be matched up against people just like you, but you aren't. You're matched up against pros, because they submit thousands of lineups so they can maximize their chances of playing against as many non-pros as possible. It's like going to your weekly office poker game and, after losing, discovering that you're actually playing against pros, not your coworkers. And to make it worse, the pros are doing this in hundreds of games all at the same time! If you had bothered to read the article, this would have been apparent.

jpindar 11y ago
But you can choose to enter games that are only against your friends - I do every week. (There's nothing physically keeping a stranger from joining our game, but since they don't know the link, and we all enter as soon as one of us creates the contest and sends us all the link, it's unlikely.) OK, I also enter other games, but in those, I typically go for the games that are small, and almost filled, so I can look at the list of other players and only enter if there are no very experienced players there.