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How do we get to a completely transparent society without massive collateral damage? I understand the rationale for the goal but the transition is so very diffi

by m1sta_ 11y ago

How do we get to a completely transparent society without massive collateral damage? I understand the rationale for the goal but the transition is so very difficult. I wish more thought was being put into it.

miguelrochefort 11y ago
My only concern at the moment is to get people to realize that privacy is not good. Only when people understand that our goal is transparency can we come up with a strategy to make the switch. Considering that we need to get to a transparent society, contributions to the privacy movement only ensures that the transition will be even more difficult and violent.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  Have you written anywhere about how you arrived at such a radical position? (I mean radical in the traditional sense, not as a slur)
  - miguelrochefort 11y ago
    I don't see how it's radical. It's the only logical conclusion. Many people have written about this. I haven't read a single convincing argument in favor of privacy as anything other than a defensive measure.
    - maxerickson 11y ago
      So no? I don't care about the labeling. I want to better understand the reasoning. Or at least, what pieces of information make it so obvious.
      - m1sta_ 11y ago
        I'm of a similar (although not identical) opinion to miguelrochefort. The short answer is... if you imagine a utopia, do you imagine lots of secrets or lots of openness and acceptance? The reality is that I came to this conclusion through a long process but I'm pretty tired. The process definitely considered whether the 'private' version of the world was even possible. I don't think it is. Surveillance will happen. Better we accept it and keep an eye on how it's used than pretend like we can prevent it in the long term. Even if you were able to discourage the ubiquitous 'high tech hackers' and 'big data' forms of surveillance (which I don't think you'll be able to do), bribes and drones will continue to be used for the powerful to get what they want.
        maxerickson 11y ago
        How do bathroom doors fit into this? In your utopia, if you ask me a question, do I have to answer honestly? That people would always want to answer honestly is not a satisfying answer.
        miguelrochefort 11y ago
        I don't know that bathrooms need doors. If you don't answer honestly, then people won't consider your answers to be reliable, and therefore everything you say will have less value. Imagine a person that's completely transparent and honest. You can't find a more predictable and reliable person. That's something you can trust and rely on. How could you dislike such a person? Honesty is beautiful. We live in a society where there's a race to the bottom when in comes to openness. We all are ashamed, lie, cheat. Full of insecurities. Constant worries. Who would like that? This leads to a society where appareance is more important than substance. You go to we'll rated schools nkt to learn and get better, but to impress your future employer and get prestigious jobs. They hire you for the same reason (safer to justify hiring Ivy League students to your boss). The best way to get a job and climb up the ladder is nkt to work on your skills, it's to bullshit well. All because we're used to seeing the perfect side of people (they get to choose what they show you). That's just disgusting.
        maxerickson 11y ago
        I could have been clearer. What If I simply decline to answer? That's essentially me keeping the answer private, so my query might have been better phrased, must I answer any question asked of me?
        miguelrochefort 11y ago
        I can't seem to reply to your last comment. So I'll answer here. I don't favor coercion, so nobody is going to be forced to say or do anything. Refusing to answer would be like refusing to help someone who request your help. Considering that answering the question is relatively inexpensive, you really don't have a reason not to do so. Unless you're hiding something, which will make people think of you as selfish. I wouldn't trust a person that is selective when it comes to answering questions. They'll only say the truth you want to hear, which will contribute to bias and poor understanding of reality. Moreover, its just plain simpler for a person to systematically tell the truth. Seriously, the mental burden of remembering lies and keeping secrets is probably extremely underrated.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]

by m1sta_ 11y ago

miguelrochefort 11y ago

My only concern at the moment is to get people to realize that privacy is not good. Only when people understand that our goal is transparency can we come up with a strategy to make the switch. Considering that we need to get to a transparent society, contributions to the privacy movement only ensures that the transition will be even more difficult and violent.

maxerickson 11y ago
Have you written anywhere about how you arrived at such a radical position? (I mean radical in the traditional sense, not as a slur)
- miguelrochefort 11y ago
  I don't see how it's radical. It's the only logical conclusion. Many people have written about this. I haven't read a single convincing argument in favor of privacy as anything other than a defensive measure.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    So no? I don't care about the labeling. I want to better understand the reasoning. Or at least, what pieces of information make it so obvious.
    - m1sta_ 11y ago
      I'm of a similar (although not identical) opinion to miguelrochefort. The short answer is... if you imagine a utopia, do you imagine lots of secrets or lots of openness and acceptance? The reality is that I came to this conclusion through a long process but I'm pretty tired. The process definitely considered whether the 'private' version of the world was even possible. I don't think it is. Surveillance will happen. Better we accept it and keep an eye on how it's used than pretend like we can prevent it in the long term. Even if you were able to discourage the ubiquitous 'high tech hackers' and 'big data' forms of surveillance (which I don't think you'll be able to do), bribes and drones will continue to be used for the powerful to get what they want.
      - maxerickson 11y ago
        How do bathroom doors fit into this? In your utopia, if you ask me a question, do I have to answer honestly? That people would always want to answer honestly is not a satisfying answer.
        miguelrochefort 11y ago
        I don't know that bathrooms need doors. If you don't answer honestly, then people won't consider your answers to be reliable, and therefore everything you say will have less value. Imagine a person that's completely transparent and honest. You can't find a more predictable and reliable person. That's something you can trust and rely on. How could you dislike such a person? Honesty is beautiful. We live in a society where there's a race to the bottom when in comes to openness. We all are ashamed, lie, cheat. Full of insecurities. Constant worries. Who would like that? This leads to a society where appareance is more important than substance. You go to we'll rated schools nkt to learn and get better, but to impress your future employer and get prestigious jobs. They hire you for the same reason (safer to justify hiring Ivy League students to your boss). The best way to get a job and climb up the ladder is nkt to work on your skills, it's to bullshit well. All because we're used to seeing the perfect side of people (they get to choose what they show you). That's just disgusting.
        maxerickson 11y ago
        I could have been clearer. What If I simply decline to answer? That's essentially me keeping the answer private, so my query might have been better phrased, must I answer any question asked of me?
        miguelrochefort 11y ago
        I can't seem to reply to your last comment. So I'll answer here. I don't favor coercion, so nobody is going to be forced to say or do anything. Refusing to answer would be like refusing to help someone who request your help. Considering that answering the question is relatively inexpensive, you really don't have a reason not to do so. Unless you're hiding something, which will make people think of you as selfish. I wouldn't trust a person that is selective when it comes to answering questions. They'll only say the truth you want to hear, which will contribute to bias and poor understanding of reality. Moreover, its just plain simpler for a person to systematically tell the truth. Seriously, the mental burden of remembering lies and keeping secrets is probably extremely underrated.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]