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I guess I just disagree with you that they're taken out of context? 1. Bond posits Yudkowski thinks that racism is mostly due to genetic difference, and not ab

I guess I just disagree with you that they're taken out of context? 1. Bond posits Yudkowski thinks that racism is mostly due to genetic difference, and not about the deliberate, mostly political disenfranchisement of minorities. You say this is a wrong because his appraisal of the situation as being caused by genetic disparities is benevolent, and that he wants to work to "fix" it. These aren't in contradiction- to say that it's unfortunate that society is racialized, but that it's due to traits rather than politics, is better than being wantonly racist, but still a well-known form of fallacious racism. Some would say this latter one is actually worse in terms of perpetuating the situation. 2. Of course it's "controversial from the get go". He looks at the disproportionate representation of certain people in ie: tech, and concludes that it's because they're "more competent". Nothing here seems to be a counter, you're just basically saying "it's politically incorrect so it's probably right". 3. Clearly it's just a story. This point eludes exactly nobody. The whole point is that these kind of people find these questions ("is rape really bad?") really intriguing rather than obvious. It makes you wonder about the power of Bayesian reasoning- the exact point of the essay. I think you're too uncharitable to critical writers like Bond (it took me a while to acquire a taste for this vicious kind of writing), underestimating their and their audiences' understanding. As a result, you think this context adds way more than it does.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
The racism and feminism points Bond makes sound to me like typical social justice warrior bullshit - no matter what you do, you're a misogynist racist. Disagreeing with the modern trend of mindless outrage paints you as an enemy. So does ignoring the topic. So let me skip it, because I do disagree with Bond very seriously about that part of the text, and I don't want to start another SJW subthread here. > Nothing here seems to be a counter, you're just basically saying "it's politically incorrect so it's probably right". No; I'm saying that just because he's politically incorrect, doesn't mean he's wrong. And it most definitely does not mean Bond gets to assume all the bad things he did about the author. Eliezer is just toying with an idea based on some observations. Personally, I find his idea intriguing and worth considering, given that time and again I've learned that when the general population seems to believe something counterintuitive and self-serving, like "those rich people are stupid and evil", they're usually wrong. > The whole point is that these kind of people find these questions ("is rape really bad?") really intriguing rather than obvious. I think we disagree on the interpretation. Many stories raise weird questions about morality; that's the reason we have literature. Please find me a place on LW where people, and Eliezer in particular, were seriously advocating for rape. Also it's worth noting that the rape angle was just a passing remark in the story, a way to shake the audience a little bit - and otherwise in no way relevant to the plot. > I think you're too uncharitable to critical writers like Bond (it took me a while to acquire a taste for this vicious kind of writing), underestimating their and their audiences' understanding. As a result, you think this context adds way more than it does. Maybe I am, but it's because I've been a member of groups that were on the receiving end of such writings, and spent a lot of time debunking them point-by-point to concerned friends and colleagues who stumbled upon them. It's painful, and you realize just how helpless you are against people who argue dishonestly.
edanm 11y ago
"1. Bond posits Yudkowski thinks that racism is mostly due to genetic difference, and not about the deliberate, mostly political disenfranchisement of minorities." You don't need to take the author's word for it. Look at the article itself. The article is not about the question of whether race affects intelligence. It's saying that that question is much less important than the fact that individuals have different IQ levels regardless of race. At least in the context of this article, which is asking whether "God is fair". To make it crystal clear - Yudkowsky is saying: 1. Forget race. There are clear, obvious, and gigantic genetic differences in individuals which cause differences in intelligence. 2. This is "unjust". 3. We should be upset about this, and try to fix it. That's all he's saying in that article - it is not at all racist. If you think otherwise, please - quote the relevant part of the article and explain yourself.
- RodericDay 11y ago
  I'm not gonna do a good job at explaining this, because it's far from my subject area, but the problem is that your demand for "the relevant part" asks for blunt evidence of a subtle phenomenon. When we talk about politics, context matters. Someone like Yudkowsky doesn't believe stupidly racist things, like a KKK member or turn-of-century politician, or even modern anti-immigration people. Bond's targeting something much more subtle. The point is that here you have a man who naively keeps trying to push the dialogue "beyond race" ("forget race"), in a forum where if you scroll down to the comment section, you'll see Jeff H. with 5 upvotes defending Watson's racist remarks, with Epiphany at 0 upvotes talking about the cultural reasons why IQ tests fail. It's about the framework, and what it allows, and about what allows the people championing it to be naive or indifferent about what it allows. Someone discussing coldly and clinically the pros and cons of rape isn't a rapist, but there's something else about someone who can have discussion coldly and clinically. Some people take pride in their level-headedness about tough topics, others would take it as a signal of their lack of empathy with the victims, and the signal this sends to people who do feel passionately about it. And so Yudkowsky will discuss race in this goofy aloof kind of way- "maybe black people are intellectually inferior, let's talk about it, does it even matter in the end?", and some people will believe that this is the right kind of coolness to produce neat solutions, and others will believe it robs the steam off of the emotional connection that would engage people in political action for change. You have to suss this kind of thing out, and if you plain don't want to believe me that there's something enabling towards racism and sexism and other various supremacist ideologies in the LessWrong ecosystem, you don't really have to.
Nostripus 11y ago
>The whole point is that these kind of people find these questions ("is rape really bad?") really intriguing rather than obvious. That isn't the question the story is asking. Second of all, Eliezer says: >This is a work of fiction. In real life, continuing to attempt to have sex with someone after they say 'no' and before they say 'yes', whether or not they offer forceful resistance and whether or not any visible injury occurs, is (in the USA) defined as rape and considered a federal felony. I agree with and support that this is the correct place for society to draw the line. Some people have worked out a safeword system in which they explicitly and verbally agree, with each other or on a signed form, that 'no' doesn't mean stop but e.g. 'red' or 'safeword' does mean stop. I agree with and support this as carving out a safe exception whose existence does not endanger innocent bystanders. If either of these statements come to you as a surprise then you should look stuff up. Thank you and remember, your safeword should be at least 10 characters and contain a mixture of letters and numbers. We now return you to your regularly scheduled reading. Yours, the author. The point that the protagonists legalized rape, is to demonstrate that the protagonists morals are just as far from us, as the baby eaters or super happies. That the story isn't about two alien societies, but three. Second of all, what "these kind of people" find intriguing is that our morals are for the most part due to our circumstances. That in the future, people may very well accept what we find today to be abhorrent, and find abhorrent what we accept. That is the point of "is rape bad?". Because it is simply an example of something that is obviously bad. Just like some time ago there were other things that were considered obviously bad, that today we accept (same sex relationships for example). And if we are aware that the future will look back and mock us for our obviously wrong morals, then maybe we will be faster to get on the ball with the next gay rights or what ever. Are there moral beliefs you hold today, that you think the future might condemn you for? Or do you think in this time and place you've acquired a perfect set of morals?

TeMPOraL 11y ago

The racism and feminism points Bond makes sound to me like typical social justice warrior bullshit - no matter what you do, you're a misogynist racist. Disagreeing with the modern trend of mindless outrage paints you as an enemy. So does ignoring the topic. So let me skip it, because I do disagree with Bond very seriously about that part of the text, and I don't want to start another SJW subthread here. > Nothing here seems to be a counter, you're just basically saying "it's politically incorrect so it's probably right". No; I'm saying that just because he's politically incorrect, doesn't mean he's wrong. And it most definitely does not mean Bond gets to assume all the bad things he did about the author. Eliezer is just toying with an idea based on some observations. Personally, I find his idea intriguing and worth considering, given that time and again I've learned that when the general population seems to believe something counterintuitive and self-serving, like "those rich people are stupid and evil", they're usually wrong. > The whole point is that these kind of people find these questions ("is rape really bad?") really intriguing rather than obvious. I think we disagree on the interpretation. Many stories raise weird questions about morality; that's the reason we have literature. Please find me a place on LW where people, and Eliezer in particular, were seriously advocating for rape. Also it's worth noting that the rape angle was just a passing remark in the story, a way to shake the audience a little bit - and otherwise in no way relevant to the plot. > I think you're too uncharitable to critical writers like Bond (it took me a while to acquire a taste for this vicious kind of writing), underestimating their and their audiences' understanding. As a result, you think this context adds way more than it does. Maybe I am, but it's because I've been a member of groups that were on the receiving end of such writings, and spent a lot of time debunking them point-by-point to concerned friends and colleagues who stumbled upon them. It's painful, and you realize just how helpless you are against people who argue dishonestly.

edanm 11y ago

"1. Bond posits Yudkowski thinks that racism is mostly due to genetic difference, and not about the deliberate, mostly political disenfranchisement of minorities." You don't need to take the author's word for it. Look at the article itself. The article is not about the question of whether race affects intelligence. It's saying that that question is much less important than the fact that individuals have different IQ levels regardless of race. At least in the context of this article, which is asking whether "God is fair". To make it crystal clear - Yudkowsky is saying: 1. Forget race. There are clear, obvious, and gigantic genetic differences in individuals which cause differences in intelligence. 2. This is "unjust". 3. We should be upset about this, and try to fix it. That's all he's saying in that article - it is not at all racist. If you think otherwise, please - quote the relevant part of the article and explain yourself.

RodericDay 11y ago
I'm not gonna do a good job at explaining this, because it's far from my subject area, but the problem is that your demand for "the relevant part" asks for blunt evidence of a subtle phenomenon. When we talk about politics, context matters. Someone like Yudkowsky doesn't believe stupidly racist things, like a KKK member or turn-of-century politician, or even modern anti-immigration people. Bond's targeting something much more subtle. The point is that here you have a man who naively keeps trying to push the dialogue "beyond race" ("forget race"), in a forum where if you scroll down to the comment section, you'll see Jeff H. with 5 upvotes defending Watson's racist remarks, with Epiphany at 0 upvotes talking about the cultural reasons why IQ tests fail. It's about the framework, and what it allows, and about what allows the people championing it to be naive or indifferent about what it allows. Someone discussing coldly and clinically the pros and cons of rape isn't a rapist, but there's something else about someone who can have discussion coldly and clinically. Some people take pride in their level-headedness about tough topics, others would take it as a signal of their lack of empathy with the victims, and the signal this sends to people who do feel passionately about it. And so Yudkowsky will discuss race in this goofy aloof kind of way- "maybe black people are intellectually inferior, let's talk about it, does it even matter in the end?", and some people will believe that this is the right kind of coolness to produce neat solutions, and others will believe it robs the steam off of the emotional connection that would engage people in political action for change. You have to suss this kind of thing out, and if you plain don't want to believe me that there's something enabling towards racism and sexism and other various supremacist ideologies in the LessWrong ecosystem, you don't really have to.

Nostripus 11y ago

>The whole point is that these kind of people find these questions ("is rape really bad?") really intriguing rather than obvious. That isn't the question the story is asking. Second of all, Eliezer says: >This is a work of fiction. In real life, continuing to attempt to have sex with someone after they say 'no' and before they say 'yes', whether or not they offer forceful resistance and whether or not any visible injury occurs, is (in the USA) defined as rape and considered a federal felony. I agree with and support that this is the correct place for society to draw the line. Some people have worked out a safeword system in which they explicitly and verbally agree, with each other or on a signed form, that 'no' doesn't mean stop but e.g. 'red' or 'safeword' does mean stop. I agree with and support this as carving out a safe exception whose existence does not endanger innocent bystanders. If either of these statements come to you as a surprise then you should look stuff up. Thank you and remember, your safeword should be at least 10 characters and contain a mixture of letters and numbers. We now return you to your regularly scheduled reading. Yours, the author. The point that the protagonists legalized rape, is to demonstrate that the protagonists morals are just as far from us, as the baby eaters or super happies. That the story isn't about two alien societies, but three. Second of all, what "these kind of people" find intriguing is that our morals are for the most part due to our circumstances. That in the future, people may very well accept what we find today to be abhorrent, and find abhorrent what we accept. That is the point of "is rape bad?". Because it is simply an example of something that is obviously bad. Just like some time ago there were other things that were considered obviously bad, that today we accept (same sex relationships for example). And if we are aware that the future will look back and mock us for our obviously wrong morals, then maybe we will be faster to get on the ball with the next gay rights or what ever. Are there moral beliefs you hold today, that you think the future might condemn you for? Or do you think in this time and place you've acquired a perfect set of morals?