6 ms·

We can't be too far off from a China-style 'citizen credit rating' kind of system.

by beedogs 11y ago

rms_returns 11y ago
It already happens unofficially. How do you think banks assess your lending/borrowing habits when you apply for a loan? There are detective agencies who track credit cards and other things (like a few examples someone gave in this very thread).
- pdkl95 11y ago
  There is a huge difference between a "private" rating system and a public rating that uses your friends against you as manipulation. See Extra Credit's description[1] of how this works. We aren't there yet, but consider that Facebook wants to use your social network associations in your credit score[2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI [2] http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/facebooks-new-patent-and-digital-redlining/407287/ http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/facebo...
  - krick 11y ago
    Jesus. If that first video is true, then that's what should be top-upvoted submission on HN. Why isn't it better known? I mean, at least I personally never heard about it and I might be not the most informed person on the Internet, but certainly I'm not the least. And this is much more important thing to know than… well, everything I usually hear on the news. I don't get often surprised by all that dystopian stuff, because I assume we already are quite fucked, but this one did surprise me. That's just crazy.
    - pdkl95 11y ago
      That video has been submitted numerous times, but it never got any attention. To be clear, I believe there is some disagreement as if this is one or multiple programs in China, but that doesn't really matter; we need to defend against the establishment of this kind of program regardless. The trick where positive reinforcement is used to trick people into wanting to participate is utterly terrifying... because it will work. It's obvious that it will work, because it is effectively the weaponization of "high school clique"-style tribalism and carefully re-framed self interest.
      - guscost 11y ago
        For some perspective, the weaponization of cliques and "othering" is very old, and it has worked for just as long. We call it politics. But a state sponsored gamified social network where the incentives are all designed by the ruling class, and the penalties have the force of law, is pretty darn awful. Hopefully the affected citizens prove to be as unpredictable and hard to control as others have in the past, because that's really their only hope.
    - joveian 11y ago
      It looks like it is starting to get some attention at least. Here is HN discussion of the article that seems possibly the primary source for the video: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10329733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10329733 It sounds like the system does not currently use politics and such, but the government would like to combine it with the existing citizen tracking system which is employer based. And a BBC article: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186 I think the US system is fairly insidious as well and has more government influence than it might seem (look into "redlining" for instance and the role the government played). Creditors can know quite a bit about your private life (particularly if you significantly outside the mainstream) and I don't think it is that uncommon for individuals to share credit scores. In any case, I think it is worth considering how "social trust systems" work everywhere and not just in the worst imagininable case. It is harder to think about in the less obviously centralized cases.
  - arethuza 11y ago
    Thanks - that is a really good video - I had heard about that scheme but I hadn't thought about the implications for an entire society of using gamification in that way.
- sampo 11y ago
  > It already happens unofficially. European living in the US here. How do these systems assess recent immigrants who have no credit history in the US?
  - bgribble 11y ago
    You're a "ghost". Your FICO credit score will probably be pretty OK (in the 600s) if you have no derogatory credit, but with no (US) history of high credit, and no established history of attachment to your job and address, any loan analyst worth their salary will be skeptical. You will probably have to pay a rate premium unless you go through a lender such as a credit union that you have an existing relationship with. Your provable income will be your biggest asset. As a non-US citizen, it makes sense that you will be perceived as a higher risk of absconding since you could leave the country permanently at any time.
  - tombrossman 11y ago
    American living in Europe here. In some ways, having no credit history is worse than having bad credit. For example, when I signed up for my first 'post-paid' mobile contract, I had to put a much larger deposit down than my friends with bad credit did. Theirs was about $500 and mine was $1000. Look at ways to establish at least some credit history sooner rather than later, as this will make things easier in the future. For example, even if you do not need a store credit card, you might get one and charge routine purchases and pay the full about each month. This avoids any extra costs and builds credit history.

We can't be too far off from a China-style 'citizen credit rating' kind of system.

by beedogs 11y ago

We can't be too far off from a China-style 'citizen credit rating' kind of system.

It already happens unofficially. How do you think banks assess your lending/borrowing habits when you apply for a loan? There are detective agencies who track credit cards and other things (like a few examples someone gave in this very thread).

pdkl95 11y ago
There is a huge difference between a "private" rating system and a public rating that uses your friends against you as manipulation. See Extra Credit's description[1] of how this works. We aren't there yet, but consider that Facebook wants to use your social network associations in your credit score[2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI [2] http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/facebooks-new-patent-and-digital-redlining/407287/ http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/facebo...
- krick 11y ago
  Jesus. If that first video is true, then that's what should be top-upvoted submission on HN. Why isn't it better known? I mean, at least I personally never heard about it and I might be not the most informed person on the Internet, but certainly I'm not the least. And this is much more important thing to know than… well, everything I usually hear on the news. I don't get often surprised by all that dystopian stuff, because I assume we already are quite fucked, but this one did surprise me. That's just crazy.
  - pdkl95 11y ago
    That video has been submitted numerous times, but it never got any attention. To be clear, I believe there is some disagreement as if this is one or multiple programs in China, but that doesn't really matter; we need to defend against the establishment of this kind of program regardless. The trick where positive reinforcement is used to trick people into wanting to participate is utterly terrifying... because it will work. It's obvious that it will work, because it is effectively the weaponization of "high school clique"-style tribalism and carefully re-framed self interest.
    - guscost 11y ago
      For some perspective, the weaponization of cliques and "othering" is very old, and it has worked for just as long. We call it politics. But a state sponsored gamified social network where the incentives are all designed by the ruling class, and the penalties have the force of law, is pretty darn awful. Hopefully the affected citizens prove to be as unpredictable and hard to control as others have in the past, because that's really their only hope.
  - joveian 11y ago
    It looks like it is starting to get some attention at least. Here is HN discussion of the article that seems possibly the primary source for the video: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10329733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10329733 It sounds like the system does not currently use politics and such, but the government would like to combine it with the existing citizen tracking system which is employer based. And a BBC article: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186 I think the US system is fairly insidious as well and has more government influence than it might seem (look into "redlining" for instance and the role the government played). Creditors can know quite a bit about your private life (particularly if you significantly outside the mainstream) and I don't think it is that uncommon for individuals to share credit scores. In any case, I think it is worth considering how "social trust systems" work everywhere and not just in the worst imagininable case. It is harder to think about in the less obviously centralized cases.
- arethuza 11y ago
  Thanks - that is a really good video - I had heard about that scheme but I hadn't thought about the implications for an entire society of using gamification in that way.
sampo 11y ago
> It already happens unofficially. European living in the US here. How do these systems assess recent immigrants who have no credit history in the US?
- bgribble 11y ago
  You're a "ghost". Your FICO credit score will probably be pretty OK (in the 600s) if you have no derogatory credit, but with no (US) history of high credit, and no established history of attachment to your job and address, any loan analyst worth their salary will be skeptical. You will probably have to pay a rate premium unless you go through a lender such as a credit union that you have an existing relationship with. Your provable income will be your biggest asset. As a non-US citizen, it makes sense that you will be perceived as a higher risk of absconding since you could leave the country permanently at any time.
- tombrossman 11y ago
  American living in Europe here. In some ways, having no credit history is worse than having bad credit. For example, when I signed up for my first 'post-paid' mobile contract, I had to put a much larger deposit down than my friends with bad credit did. Theirs was about $500 and mine was $1000. Look at ways to establish at least some credit history sooner rather than later, as this will make things easier in the future. For example, even if you do not need a store credit card, you might get one and charge routine purchases and pay the full about each month. This avoids any extra costs and builds credit history.