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"Scared"? Will I be "scared" if a guest at my house is live-streaming his stay to the Internet without my knowledge or approval? Hell, no. I'll be pissed. Now

by eps 11y ago

"Scared"? Will I be "scared" if a guest at my house is live-streaming his stay to the Internet without my knowledge or approval? Hell, no. I'll be pissed. Now, that's exactly naive, careless and fundamentally ignorant comment that the erosion of privacy is all about. You seem to genuienly think that tracking is not just acceptable, but a norm in some situatioons. Not just several years ago if an OS or an app phoned home it was a scandal. It was commonly accepted that your gadget was yours, and anything running on it was a guest that had to follow some decency and basic etiquette norms. Theh, the push started - can we report this, just once? Can we report that, weekly? We'll call it a "telemetry", it's less scary that way. Perhaps you are getting tired of pushing OK, shall we do it automatically? OK, so we'll now just default to automatic. and make it hard to disable. Heck, we'll just build it in, because nobody now seems to be giving a fuck anyway. But here's the best part - we now even have users who are campaigning on our behalf to not give a fuck. That's just grand.

victorhooi 11y ago
Yes, but you avoided my question - what exactly is the fear here? As in, is there a particular type of data, or information about your app usage that you don't want developers having access to? I worked at a trading company before, and one of the reasons we pushed out telemetry was due to user's feature requests - users would request features, and we wanted to see if they were actually using them, so that we could prioritise developer time accordingly. That is a concrete example of how this data is useful. I am curious about any concrete examples from the other side.
- thetmkay 11y ago
  Why does it have to be fear, rather than preference? Maybe there's no data you're afraid of leaking, but you would prefer never to leak that data. It's a consumer choice - the problem here is lack of transparency/information to the consumer. The cultural standard is what we accept to be appropriate - do we want to accept a cultural standard of everything you use is tracked and logged by default?
  - victorhooi 11y ago
    If that's your preference, then you are free to not use those webapps, or mobile apps - why would yo use Gmail, or Instagram, or Twitter, or Facebook, if you were worried about your data being held by a third party? We shouldn't automatically assume people are stupid, or that they are being "duped". There are numerous advantages to using a cloud-hosted service - if you tried to replicate Gmail or Dropbox, to the same level of reliability, performance and sharing features - the engineering effort alone would probably stump many of us. Once again - is there a concrete fear here from application developers knowing how we use their applications? And is it one that we think people are somehow unaware of?
    - DoubleMalt 11y ago
      There are services like https://cloudfleet.io https://cloudfleet.io (disclaimer I'm one of the founders) that make it easy to get rid of GMail and Dropbox.
      - victorhooi 11y ago
        That is pretty cool =) - I've just had a skim of your IndieGoGo page (good luck with that), and it certainly looks interesting. I suspect you're catering to a certain market (i.e. those willing to fork out either 450 EUR and put up with some rough edges, or willing to setup the VM themselves), but I applaud your effort. Good on you mate.
        DoubleMalt 11y ago
        Well you can still get it for €150 if you're fast. And the base price is €240.
    - darklajid 11y ago
      You asked for fear three times in a row. People tried to make you understand that 'fear' isn't the problem. I'm not sure how to state it more clearly: "It's not fear" You presented a very weird case to begin with by implying that the reason people wouldn't want to be tracked is 'fear'. Why? Maybe you're really just saying "Okay, ignoring all the other reasons why you might not like tracking: Are there any inherent flaws in tracking/something we can do to make this more trustworthy", but right now I feel as if you're presenting a weird "Either you consent to us tracking you or you fear something (specific)" choice.
- eps 11y ago
  This has nothing to do with "fear."
galephico 11y ago
Welcome to the foot-in-the-door[1] technique [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique
jk563 11y ago
I'm intrigued. I believe everyone is entitled to their view on privacy, whether that's "expose all data" or "remain completely anonymous", but there's an interesting collision presented here. > if a guest at my house is live-streaming his stay to the Internet without my knowledge or approval Would you consider live-streaming to be audio-visual streaming or literally any data that could remotely indicate the guest is in your presence / property? And, as a follow up, in case it's the latter: do you require guests to put phones into Airplane mode or similar?

by eps 11y ago

victorhooi 11y ago

Yes, but you avoided my question - what exactly is the fear here? As in, is there a particular type of data, or information about your app usage that you don't want developers having access to? I worked at a trading company before, and one of the reasons we pushed out telemetry was due to user's feature requests - users would request features, and we wanted to see if they were actually using them, so that we could prioritise developer time accordingly. That is a concrete example of how this data is useful. I am curious about any concrete examples from the other side.

thetmkay 11y ago
Why does it have to be fear, rather than preference? Maybe there's no data you're afraid of leaking, but you would prefer never to leak that data. It's a consumer choice - the problem here is lack of transparency/information to the consumer. The cultural standard is what we accept to be appropriate - do we want to accept a cultural standard of everything you use is tracked and logged by default?
- victorhooi 11y ago
  If that's your preference, then you are free to not use those webapps, or mobile apps - why would yo use Gmail, or Instagram, or Twitter, or Facebook, if you were worried about your data being held by a third party? We shouldn't automatically assume people are stupid, or that they are being "duped". There are numerous advantages to using a cloud-hosted service - if you tried to replicate Gmail or Dropbox, to the same level of reliability, performance and sharing features - the engineering effort alone would probably stump many of us. Once again - is there a concrete fear here from application developers knowing how we use their applications? And is it one that we think people are somehow unaware of?
  - DoubleMalt 11y ago
    There are services like https://cloudfleet.io https://cloudfleet.io (disclaimer I'm one of the founders) that make it easy to get rid of GMail and Dropbox.
    - victorhooi 11y ago
      That is pretty cool =) - I've just had a skim of your IndieGoGo page (good luck with that), and it certainly looks interesting. I suspect you're catering to a certain market (i.e. those willing to fork out either 450 EUR and put up with some rough edges, or willing to setup the VM themselves), but I applaud your effort. Good on you mate.
      - DoubleMalt 11y ago
        Well you can still get it for €150 if you're fast. And the base price is €240.
  - darklajid 11y ago
    You asked for fear three times in a row. People tried to make you understand that 'fear' isn't the problem. I'm not sure how to state it more clearly: "It's not fear" You presented a very weird case to begin with by implying that the reason people wouldn't want to be tracked is 'fear'. Why? Maybe you're really just saying "Okay, ignoring all the other reasons why you might not like tracking: Are there any inherent flaws in tracking/something we can do to make this more trustworthy", but right now I feel as if you're presenting a weird "Either you consent to us tracking you or you fear something (specific)" choice.
eps 11y ago
This has nothing to do with "fear."

galephico 11y ago

Welcome to the foot-in-the-door[1] technique [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique

jk563 11y ago

I'm intrigued. I believe everyone is entitled to their view on privacy, whether that's "expose all data" or "remain completely anonymous", but there's an interesting collision presented here. > if a guest at my house is live-streaming his stay to the Internet without my knowledge or approval Would you consider live-streaming to be audio-visual streaming or literally any data that could remotely indicate the guest is in your presence / property? And, as a follow up, in case it's the latter: do you require guests to put phones into Airplane mode or similar?