6 ms·

> "using a stereotypically racist American/English misspelling of an arab name to convey some amount of untrustworthyness?" People do have this name[1][2] so i

> "using a stereotypically racist American/English misspelling of an arab name to convey some amount of untrustworthyness?" People do have this name[1][2] so it's not exactly a misspelling. Not a very common one though. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad#Other_spellings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad#Other_spellings [2] http://hamariweb.com/names/muslim/arabic/boy/achmed-meaning_1105 http://hamariweb.com/names/muslim/arabic/boy/achmed-meaning_...

jheriko 11y ago
tbh, i was judging too quickly given that i don't have masses of experience with this... but i still think the intent of a stereotypical name is there. my reasoning was: 1.) never seen an arab transliterate the name this way. ahmed, ahmad and akhmed... but the k tends to symbolise a different letter (and sound) present in the arabic too. (so this turns out to be a flawed piece of thinking) 2.) the first time i saw this spelling was as 'achmed the dead terrorist', which has biased me. (p.s. i find that very funny, and i think the difference is that the comedian is specifically mocking a group of people who definitely exist vs. using an arab name to imply terrorism [or dishonesty or incompetence... or anything]) i'm sure its not meant with any particular ill will towards arabs, but i can't shake that feeling that this is some casual racism...
- meowface 11y ago
  You are the first person I've met who finds Jeff Dunham's comedy funny.
  - lwhalen 11y ago
    Pleased to make your acquaintance. I suppose this makes me the second...
    - meowface 11y ago
      I find him the least funny professional comic I've personally seen. Even as a pretty young child, watching him on TV for even a few minutes made me cringe. It felt like humor aimed at 12-year-old boys or rednecks. Dane Cook is a comedy genius compared to him.
      - lwhalen 11y ago
        There's no explaining taste ;-)
      - jheriko 11y ago
        hes not "exceptionally" funny to me, but i'd not want to say he is especially poor as a comedian... there are many out there who are much more deserving of that level of criticism, and plenty of others who i find much funnier. its all subjective though. the point i was aiming at, and obviously missed, is that what he does with the dead terrorist puppet, whist obviously a very strong stereotype, playing on other stereotypes, doesn't offend me like this does. the more i try and rationalise this irrational emotional response, the more i am convinced it is the implications. there is something prejudiced about claiming that arab terrorists are arabs and terrorists, but its by definition the case. so lampooning the concept on that idea, whilst it looks like it should be offensive on the surface, really is not... but there is definitely something wrong about using stereotypical 'arab' names to enhance a perception of dishonesty as part of a joke trying to make a point about who you should trust, and who you should not.
      - jheriko 11y ago
        i guess the dane cook point is another criticism i missed, i just watched a stand up by him. nothing was funny at all... it was like watching a friend having a rant. at least compared to guys like chris rock, bill hicks, george carlin, richard pryor etc. to list some really great american comics... although i apologise if i missed the mark. humour is very subjective. everyone has their own ideas about what is and isn't. :)
- caf 11y ago
  You're right, it is a completely typical example of casual racism.
  - brighteyes 11y ago
    No, this isn't an example of casual racism. First, if it was "Honest Steve", I assume you wouldn't see it as racist? Or "Honest Mary", the same? If so, how about "Honest Vinnie"? Is it only when the name suggests a specific ethnic or racial group that it feels racist to you? Only certain such groups? That actually reveals a bigger problem. If "Steve" and "Mary" are 'normal' names, but "Achmed" (and maybe "Vinnie") is 'weird'/'noticeable' to you, then that's a hidden assumption that "normal" = "white middle class American". That's not good. The second major issue is that there's a subtext to this joke. The joke is that no one in the US would call a new CA "Honest Achmed", precisely because it looks... odd. In other words, the joke is on the people that find it odd - including the same people that think it might be a racist joke. That it feels 'odd' is wrong; it shouldn't. But in our society, it does feel odd. That's not the joke being racist - that's society being biased. When you call the joke racist, you're completely missing the point, and shooting the messenger. Am I saying stuff like this can never be racist? Of course not. It could easily be. If a TV show always picks a black person for the "random criminal of the week", that's racist. Likewise, if every time we needed a random name of "new CA" it was an Arab-sounding one, that would be racist. In other words, the pattern matters. When a TV show or a recurring joke constantly focuses on one group, for no reason, that's very possibly wrong. But of course, we don't constantly use Arab names for "new CA" jokes. There isn't such a pattern. This is just a one-off joke. One that actually makes fun of the racism you're worried about. Worrying about racism is a good thing. But seeing racism where it isn't is not, it's the opposite.
    - jheriko 11y ago
      i'm not american. i'm not entirely comfortable that this bothers me given the seemingly innocent intent either... but it does. the joke is as much on it being 'honest' as it is 'achmed' from my perspective... and thats a bit off.
    - caf 11y ago
- roywiggins 11y ago
  This was my read on this too. foreigny name ergo not trustworthy. The same point could have been made just as well with "Honest Joe's Used Car and Certs."
  - ixtli 11y ago
    Not sure I agree. In a north eastern accent "ahnest ackmed" has a bit of a rhyme to it that has a hint of sleezy used car sales. Also interesting is that people took issue with the name _potentially_ eluding to a cultural (names dont imply race in this instance) stereotype instead of the _direct_ stereotype about the uncles. EDIT: To be clear I'm not condoning casual racism. It's just that while I wasn't aware of a middle eastern stereotype about sleezy used car sales, I was aware of the one no one mentioned about the uncles which was pretty much direct.
    - jheriko 11y ago
      there is a stereotype of arabs as thieves and conmen. "you thieving arab" etc. it think its there due to piracy and the barbary wars... as a guess i also think i am the only one who really took any issue, and its half-hearted at best. i know i shouldn't be offended - but i am.
  - manicdee 11y ago
    Or Uncle Mahmoud's genuine Persian rug emporium, going off the way that every helpful person in Istanbul has an uncle selling rugs in the market.
- yareally 11y ago
  Yeah, that sounds pretty accurate to me and likely what the submitter was conveying. I was only commenting on the intentional misspelling part of your comment :)
  - jheriko 11y ago
    which? i didn't intend to make mistakes. XD

jheriko 11y ago

tbh, i was judging too quickly given that i don't have masses of experience with this... but i still think the intent of a stereotypical name is there. my reasoning was: 1.) never seen an arab transliterate the name this way. ahmed, ahmad and akhmed... but the k tends to symbolise a different letter (and sound) present in the arabic too. (so this turns out to be a flawed piece of thinking) 2.) the first time i saw this spelling was as 'achmed the dead terrorist', which has biased me. (p.s. i find that very funny, and i think the difference is that the comedian is specifically mocking a group of people who definitely exist vs. using an arab name to imply terrorism [or dishonesty or incompetence... or anything]) i'm sure its not meant with any particular ill will towards arabs, but i can't shake that feeling that this is some casual racism...

meowface 11y ago
You are the first person I've met who finds Jeff Dunham's comedy funny.
- lwhalen 11y ago
  Pleased to make your acquaintance. I suppose this makes me the second...
  - meowface 11y ago
    I find him the least funny professional comic I've personally seen. Even as a pretty young child, watching him on TV for even a few minutes made me cringe. It felt like humor aimed at 12-year-old boys or rednecks. Dane Cook is a comedy genius compared to him.
    - lwhalen 11y ago
      There's no explaining taste ;-)
    - jheriko 11y ago
      hes not "exceptionally" funny to me, but i'd not want to say he is especially poor as a comedian... there are many out there who are much more deserving of that level of criticism, and plenty of others who i find much funnier. its all subjective though. the point i was aiming at, and obviously missed, is that what he does with the dead terrorist puppet, whist obviously a very strong stereotype, playing on other stereotypes, doesn't offend me like this does. the more i try and rationalise this irrational emotional response, the more i am convinced it is the implications. there is something prejudiced about claiming that arab terrorists are arabs and terrorists, but its by definition the case. so lampooning the concept on that idea, whilst it looks like it should be offensive on the surface, really is not... but there is definitely something wrong about using stereotypical 'arab' names to enhance a perception of dishonesty as part of a joke trying to make a point about who you should trust, and who you should not.
    - jheriko 11y ago
      i guess the dane cook point is another criticism i missed, i just watched a stand up by him. nothing was funny at all... it was like watching a friend having a rant. at least compared to guys like chris rock, bill hicks, george carlin, richard pryor etc. to list some really great american comics... although i apologise if i missed the mark. humour is very subjective. everyone has their own ideas about what is and isn't. :)
caf 11y ago
You're right, it is a completely typical example of casual racism.
- brighteyes 11y ago
  No, this isn't an example of casual racism. First, if it was "Honest Steve", I assume you wouldn't see it as racist? Or "Honest Mary", the same? If so, how about "Honest Vinnie"? Is it only when the name suggests a specific ethnic or racial group that it feels racist to you? Only certain such groups? That actually reveals a bigger problem. If "Steve" and "Mary" are 'normal' names, but "Achmed" (and maybe "Vinnie") is 'weird'/'noticeable' to you, then that's a hidden assumption that "normal" = "white middle class American". That's not good. The second major issue is that there's a subtext to this joke. The joke is that no one in the US would call a new CA "Honest Achmed", precisely because it looks... odd. In other words, the joke is on the people that find it odd - including the same people that think it might be a racist joke. That it feels 'odd' is wrong; it shouldn't. But in our society, it does feel odd. That's not the joke being racist - that's society being biased. When you call the joke racist, you're completely missing the point, and shooting the messenger. Am I saying stuff like this can never be racist? Of course not. It could easily be. If a TV show always picks a black person for the "random criminal of the week", that's racist. Likewise, if every time we needed a random name of "new CA" it was an Arab-sounding one, that would be racist. In other words, the pattern matters. When a TV show or a recurring joke constantly focuses on one group, for no reason, that's very possibly wrong. But of course, we don't constantly use Arab names for "new CA" jokes. There isn't such a pattern. This is just a one-off joke. One that actually makes fun of the racism you're worried about. Worrying about racism is a good thing. But seeing racism where it isn't is not, it's the opposite.
  - jheriko 11y ago
    i'm not american. i'm not entirely comfortable that this bothers me given the seemingly innocent intent either... but it does. the joke is as much on it being 'honest' as it is 'achmed' from my perspective... and thats a bit off.
  - caf 11y ago
roywiggins 11y ago
This was my read on this too. foreigny name ergo not trustworthy. The same point could have been made just as well with "Honest Joe's Used Car and Certs."
- ixtli 11y ago
  Not sure I agree. In a north eastern accent "ahnest ackmed" has a bit of a rhyme to it that has a hint of sleezy used car sales. Also interesting is that people took issue with the name _potentially_ eluding to a cultural (names dont imply race in this instance) stereotype instead of the _direct_ stereotype about the uncles. EDIT: To be clear I'm not condoning casual racism. It's just that while I wasn't aware of a middle eastern stereotype about sleezy used car sales, I was aware of the one no one mentioned about the uncles which was pretty much direct.
  - jheriko 11y ago
    there is a stereotype of arabs as thieves and conmen. "you thieving arab" etc. it think its there due to piracy and the barbary wars... as a guess i also think i am the only one who really took any issue, and its half-hearted at best. i know i shouldn't be offended - but i am.
- manicdee 11y ago
  Or Uncle Mahmoud's genuine Persian rug emporium, going off the way that every helpful person in Istanbul has an uncle selling rugs in the market.
yareally 11y ago
Yeah, that sounds pretty accurate to me and likely what the submitter was conveying. I was only commenting on the intentional misspelling part of your comment :)
- jheriko 11y ago
  which? i didn't intend to make mistakes. XD