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This is the first time I've come across 'product engineer'. How is this different from a 'full stack engineer'?

system_32 11y ago
The product engineer wouldn't necessarily (or rather, shouldn't) implement the functionality. That would be left to the full stack engineer.
- dasil003 11y ago
  If the product engineer doesn't implement, why is engineer in their title? Is it just a rebranded UX Designer? Is it a glorified Software Architect?
  - NetStrikeForce 11y ago
    She engineers the product, but doesn't lay the bricks. The product is not just the software.
    - dasil003 11y ago
      You're begging the question. What does "engineering the product" mean? Software engineers are not civil engineers, there are not professional standards for what this means.
      - NetStrikeForce 11y ago
        Fair point, there's no formal or widely accepted definition for Product Engineer. In Roman languages, the word "engineer" derives from the word for "wit" (e.g. "Ingeniero" <- "Ingenio" in Spanish); hence there's a mental connection to identify an engineer as someone who uses her wit to solve problems. The Product Engineer hence uses her wit to solve Product issues, that could range from technical issues to manufacturing, materials, distribution or even marketing issues. She has to have a more holistic and less deep view of multiple areas, a la Project Manager. Now you'll tell me that I'm talking about a Product Manager and I'll have to agree. In my opinion, a Product Engineer is a different name for a Product Manager. Product Management is a really broad area and I think some people more inclined to technical stuff and especially software development would feel more at home being called Product Engineer than Product Manager.
        dasil003 11y ago
        So here's my problem with this. There is no bricklaying in software. If something is really repetitive and mind-numbing it should be automated. That is the difference between software engineering and engineering/construction—the computer does all the rote work. I get that there are amazing semi-technical managers and UX people who add outsize value even though they don't code—I don't subscribe to the SV worship of "hard skills". However, SV is also full of jackass wantrepreneurs who think they don't need to learn how to code because their singular vision is so valuable. These "idea guys" are the antithesis of what it takes to build a successful startup, and I worry that defining Product Engineer this way just gives them another place to hang their hat and further their own preciousness. "Engineer" should be reserved for someone who codes or at least administers technical systems hands on. I'm well aware that traditional engineering disciplines look down their nose at programmers for declaring themselves engineers with such informal practices, but nevertheless software engineering is a thing with its own challenges (in many ways more difficult than physical engineering due to the breadth of scale and lack of constraints). Why do we need to water it down when we already have terms like Product Manager or UX Designer?
DavidChouinard 11y ago
Full stack engineers are generalist engineers who are motivated by technical problems. Product engineers are motivated by building impactful tools. They learnt programming somewhere along the way as a necessity to show the world their ideas. Product engineers generally pick mainstream languages and tools. They talk about users, strategy and product.
- taurath 11y ago
  The definition for generalist engineers is relatively new. I consider myself a full stack engineer motivated by product problems.
- sanderjd 11y ago
  And what of those who are motivated by technical problems and by user needs and business strategy? Is it impossible to learn programming because of an interest in computer science or in the challenge of programming for its own sake, but learn product and strategy as a way to put those skills to impactful use? I don't like this sort of pigeon-holing; most developers I know straddle this divide.
- hosh 11y ago
  That's an interesting way to distinguish them, though I've seen people change from one to another. Motivations can change in a person. I'm currently in the process of teaching one of the agency devs we hired on contract how to think with the end-user in mind. At the same time, I've tried to teach other how to reason through things from a purely technical perspective. "Product engineers generally pick mainstream languages and tools." <-- going by that characterization, a "product engineer" will miss out some strategic advantages that comes from learning non-mainstream languages and tools. This is coming from the idea that, say, there are powerful abstractions and concepts that can be applied broadly, including UX. For example: Promise Theory is a formal language for describing intentions and a powerful framework for creating cooperating agents in the context of uncertainty. It is typically applied to configuration management, infrastructure and microservices, but it can be applied broadly to human-to-human and human-to-machine interfaces -- literally, UX. For example, knowing that humans will typically assess trust in an iterative way, you can pick apart the entire user flow in terms of the perceived (implied or explicit) promises (user expectations) the product makes. It starts from the advertising (signaling), through user signup, through onboarding, and any useful impact that product makes. It extends through into support and infrastructure scaling, and back to the user signaling to other users that, hey, this is a useful too. Another huge aspect that conception of the product engineer misses is strategic thinking. Strategic thinking is the art of making decisions in face of uncertainty. Engineers typically don't think strategically, usually thinking in terms of relative advantages instead of strategic advantages.
6a68 11y ago
I think of it like this, roughly: "Full-stack engineer" describes a person's technical knowledge: comfortable doing front-end or server work, maybe comfortable designing whole things from scratch. "Product engineer" describes a person's motivations: primarily interested in writing code as a means to making a product, or improving a product. Lots of engineers are primarily motivated by writing high quality code, or very performant code, or prefer to write tools (libraries/frameworks) over writing products using those tools.

The product engineer wouldn't necessarily (or rather, shouldn't) implement the functionality. That would be left to the full stack engineer.

dasil003 11y ago
If the product engineer doesn't implement, why is engineer in their title? Is it just a rebranded UX Designer? Is it a glorified Software Architect?
- NetStrikeForce 11y ago
  She engineers the product, but doesn't lay the bricks. The product is not just the software.
  - dasil003 11y ago
    You're begging the question. What does "engineering the product" mean? Software engineers are not civil engineers, there are not professional standards for what this means.
    - NetStrikeForce 11y ago
      Fair point, there's no formal or widely accepted definition for Product Engineer. In Roman languages, the word "engineer" derives from the word for "wit" (e.g. "Ingeniero" <- "Ingenio" in Spanish); hence there's a mental connection to identify an engineer as someone who uses her wit to solve problems. The Product Engineer hence uses her wit to solve Product issues, that could range from technical issues to manufacturing, materials, distribution or even marketing issues. She has to have a more holistic and less deep view of multiple areas, a la Project Manager. Now you'll tell me that I'm talking about a Product Manager and I'll have to agree. In my opinion, a Product Engineer is a different name for a Product Manager. Product Management is a really broad area and I think some people more inclined to technical stuff and especially software development would feel more at home being called Product Engineer than Product Manager.
      - dasil003 11y ago
        So here's my problem with this. There is no bricklaying in software. If something is really repetitive and mind-numbing it should be automated. That is the difference between software engineering and engineering/construction—the computer does all the rote work. I get that there are amazing semi-technical managers and UX people who add outsize value even though they don't code—I don't subscribe to the SV worship of "hard skills". However, SV is also full of jackass wantrepreneurs who think they don't need to learn how to code because their singular vision is so valuable. These "idea guys" are the antithesis of what it takes to build a successful startup, and I worry that defining Product Engineer this way just gives them another place to hang their hat and further their own preciousness. "Engineer" should be reserved for someone who codes or at least administers technical systems hands on. I'm well aware that traditional engineering disciplines look down their nose at programmers for declaring themselves engineers with such informal practices, but nevertheless software engineering is a thing with its own challenges (in many ways more difficult than physical engineering due to the breadth of scale and lack of constraints). Why do we need to water it down when we already have terms like Product Manager or UX Designer?

DavidChouinard 11y ago

Full stack engineers are generalist engineers who are motivated by technical problems. Product engineers are motivated by building impactful tools. They learnt programming somewhere along the way as a necessity to show the world their ideas. Product engineers generally pick mainstream languages and tools. They talk about users, strategy and product.

taurath 11y ago
The definition for generalist engineers is relatively new. I consider myself a full stack engineer motivated by product problems.
sanderjd 11y ago
And what of those who are motivated by technical problems and by user needs and business strategy? Is it impossible to learn programming because of an interest in computer science or in the challenge of programming for its own sake, but learn product and strategy as a way to put those skills to impactful use? I don't like this sort of pigeon-holing; most developers I know straddle this divide.
hosh 11y ago
That's an interesting way to distinguish them, though I've seen people change from one to another. Motivations can change in a person. I'm currently in the process of teaching one of the agency devs we hired on contract how to think with the end-user in mind. At the same time, I've tried to teach other how to reason through things from a purely technical perspective. "Product engineers generally pick mainstream languages and tools." <-- going by that characterization, a "product engineer" will miss out some strategic advantages that comes from learning non-mainstream languages and tools. This is coming from the idea that, say, there are powerful abstractions and concepts that can be applied broadly, including UX. For example: Promise Theory is a formal language for describing intentions and a powerful framework for creating cooperating agents in the context of uncertainty. It is typically applied to configuration management, infrastructure and microservices, but it can be applied broadly to human-to-human and human-to-machine interfaces -- literally, UX. For example, knowing that humans will typically assess trust in an iterative way, you can pick apart the entire user flow in terms of the perceived (implied or explicit) promises (user expectations) the product makes. It starts from the advertising (signaling), through user signup, through onboarding, and any useful impact that product makes. It extends through into support and infrastructure scaling, and back to the user signaling to other users that, hey, this is a useful too. Another huge aspect that conception of the product engineer misses is strategic thinking. Strategic thinking is the art of making decisions in face of uncertainty. Engineers typically don't think strategically, usually thinking in terms of relative advantages instead of strategic advantages.

6a68 11y ago

I think of it like this, roughly: "Full-stack engineer" describes a person's technical knowledge: comfortable doing front-end or server work, maybe comfortable designing whole things from scratch. "Product engineer" describes a person's motivations: primarily interested in writing code as a means to making a product, or improving a product. Lots of engineers are primarily motivated by writing high quality code, or very performant code, or prefer to write tools (libraries/frameworks) over writing products using those tools.