5 ms·

I Moved to Linux and It’s Even Better Than I Expected

40 points by pauljonas 11y ago

nickpsecurity 11y ago
Counterpoint: http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.de... Note: I use Mint. I'm just pointing out there's still so many issues that anecdotal articles have no weight due to variance in user's experience largely determined by hardware and apps used. I will also note that it disturbs me that some of these problems were in UNIX Hater's Handbook a long, long time ago. Still there.
- arfar 11y ago
  Is this your blog? Just thought you might like to know that "Trend Micro OfficeScan" detects this website as a "fraud page or threat source"
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    No it's not. Mine wouldn't be as apologetic to those repeating same mistakes for decades. It also would be low risk as I use text files and HTML 3.2. ;)
- anonbanker 11y ago
  Gotta vehemently disagree with one of the issues listed: If you used OSSv1 or v2, or v3, you would understand why OSSv4 failed: You had to _pay_ for sound card drivers in linux. I had an Opti OPL3-SA sound card. The card cost $19 new. In order to use it in linux, I had to pay 4Front $25 to use the damn thing in linux. if I didn't pay the ransom for hardware I already owned, I was limited to 30 minutes of sound output. then I had to not just modprobe, but wipe cruft from my filesystem and reinstall. It cost $5 more to buy a Yamaha sound card than I would've paid 4front, but they didn't deserve a dime of my money, and Yamaha's drivers were free. Alsa may suck, but it's free and good enough. and 4Front doesn't deserve to have its code in the linux kernel.
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    I could see why that wouldn't be popular. But you're also saying it was unacceptable that people didn't do a lot of work for you for free. As in, FOSS crowd isn't doing it, almost no market for it, someone does it for a fee, and it isn't acceptable due to the fee. Kind of like buying a Yamaha bike, demanding different steering + tires, them saying no due to costs vs demand, offering to do it for a fee, and you say "why would I pay for the mod if I already bought the bike?" Then they stare at you confused.
    - anonbanker 11y ago
      if OPTi had written the drivers, sure, I might have paid. Just to show that linux support is appreciated. In fact, this is a decent driver model, if companies actually wanted to make us put our money where our mouth is. However, 4front held people for _ransom_ on a free operating system. that's way different. that's Bitkeeper-made-git-happen levels of different.
      - nickpsecurity 11y ago
        "However, 4front held people for _ransom_ on a free operating system. that's way different. that's Bitkeeper-made-git-happen levels of different." What do you mean by that specifically? You're fine with people charging for drivers but they apparently did something specific that was worse.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  I keep reading and i keep finding that his references either do not back his point, or are basically a problem because of intransigent proprietary suppliers (see Torvalds "fuck you Nvidia"). Then again there are no singular "desktop". There is the media consumption desktop, the media production desktop, the gaming desktop, the office production desktop, etc etc etc. In the end though, the basic problem is that unless some company pulls an Apple and start selling Linux preinstalled out of physical stores with knowledgeable staff for walk in support, the market will be stuck with Windows. This simply because that is what everyone tests against, because that is the largest market, and you got your catch 22 going. Never mind that MS have a history of playing lip service to standard definitions (embrace, extend, extinguish anyone?).
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    I recognized many personally and clicked on some but not most or all. Now that you mentioned it, I click on more to find that your right: some references straight up contradict the claim being made. Wth... Might have to make a revised version of it. Many of them are hardware-related but you can't solely blame it on proprietary hardware. The times where work was put in got things done. Tons of work has been put into Linux with all kinds of features and fixes. There's even enterprise distro's aimed at business desktops bringing in revenue. Yet, core functionality for desktops has problems it's had for a long time that can only be explained by lack of effort. So, author's (and my) point still stands even after knocking out bad references or ignoring truly hardware-specific problems. If you doubt it, just check out autotools to see the state of software maintenance that sometimes shows up in FOSS UNIX's. ;)
otterpro 11y ago
I currently use Debian for all the servers, and I cannot imagine using any other OS beside Linux for servers. I've also played with everything from ancient VAX mainframe, SUN OS, all kinds of BSD flavors, and my first experience using Linux was with Slackware distro on a PC with first gen Pentium. The desktop is another story. Ever since Ubuntu came out, I was a fan, and I still remember being excited when I received each new release of Ubuntu on CD/DVD with stickers in the mail, all free from Canonical... Good old days... Eventually, I went all-in to make Ubuntu my only desktop OS. However, I ran into few obstacles, which could be overcome with research and asking questions, but eventually I just didn't have enough energy or time to fix things. I really wanted it to work. I'd still like to start using Linux as a desktop for running just browsers/emails/shell/vim, but anything else, it is difficult. (Still looking for Camtasia/screenflow, Adobe Premiere alternative on Linux) A non-technical friend decided to try Ubuntu because he was so tired of running Windows and couldn't justify spending money on Mac. But he ran into issues like audio not working. I'm sure he could've found solution to getting the audio working, or perhaps bought a compatible USB audio to make it work, but these "annoyances" were definitely not pleasant experience. I really wanted him to succeed, but eventually he bit the bullet and just got a Macbook. Perhaps desktop for a common user is no longer relevant, as mobile OS (android/ios) have taken over some of this space. However, I agree that Linux as a desktop is important since it provides an alternative, but I still wish that things could be better.
- anonbanker 11y ago
  PulseAudio is pretty stable nowadays. 6 or 7 years after it was released and made the default audio manager for most distros. I still have issues with HDMI audio not switching when plugging in HDMI, that completely disappear when I set JACK as the audio manager, and make PA it's slave. but nobody uses JACK except for the Pro Audio guys. NetworkManager had a similar trajectory: Started off buggy as hell, and eventually got to a point where you didn't think about it. Both of these apps were written by the same person, and were later fixed by a team of other people. Both of these apps have cost me linux conversions, to the point that I would have a list of supported laptops (and caveats) maintained in order to deal with the quirks I found. I heavily recommend Calculate Linux Scratch KDE[0] as a base distribution for Desktops. Try it and see if I'm wrong. Also, Silentcast[1] solves your Camtasia issue, and I'd be surprised if Kdenlive[2] didn't solve your Premiere needs. 0. http://www.calculate-linux.org/main/en/download http://www.calculate-linux.org/main/en/download 1. https://github.com/colinkeenan/silentcast https://github.com/colinkeenan/silentcast 2. https://kdenlive.org/ https://kdenlive.org/
unsignedint 11y ago
I ended up in Linux -- mostly for my preference couple years ago. But looking at the landscape today, simply there aren't any alternatives anymore. I share the author's sentiment about Google, but for the other reason -- it's the fact their service often works better than their competitors, not only they have Chrome available for Linux, Google's Music, and movie service works better than many competitors out there. (I guess they have incentive to make it work on Linux, as Chromebooks are pretty much Linux-based -- which may not necessarily the QA objective other companies would look into.) I really hope Linux will be able to break the 10% mark, if not becoming hugely popular. If 1/10 of people are not being access to certain content, it becomes harder for content providers to ignore Linux users.
anta40 11y ago
For me, completely abandoning Windows at the moment is impossible. Obvious reason: PC game :p Linux itself makes a excellent tinkering platform, though. And for daily use I think it's relatively "user-friendlier" than a decade ago. Of course I mean user-friendlier for the average PC users, not just hardcore geeks.
chadzawistowski 11y ago
Sorry to pick nits, and maybe this is a tired chord, but Purism does not make "laptops built entirely with non-proprietary hardware and software, or as much as can be done at this point". The only big difference between a Purism laptop and other laptops (Acer, Asus, Dell, etc.) is that the CPU has been fused to allow running unsigned firmware. Unfortunately, since we still don't have free firmware to run in place of Intel's, Purism has no present advantage over buying most any laptop and installing Linux yourself. There do exist true FSF-approved laptops, but the current best of these (Libreboot X60 and X200) are essentially refurbished ~2008 Thinkpads. They are so old because Intel was only beginning to sign firmware -- those are the most recent CPUs for which signing firmware has been cracked. Purism loudly trumpets their roadmaps[0] and plans[1] so as to suggest a trajectory towards totally free software, but until they achieve it their product is not worth a premium compared to installing Linux on an ultrabook of your choice. [0] https://puri.sm/posts/roadmap-to-a-completely-free-bios/ https://puri.sm/posts/roadmap-to-a-completely-free-bios/ Here they outline many things that need to be done. But note the language- "Purism’s goal is to publish a Free Software implementation ... as soon as an implementation is available." But who is responsible for implementing it? [1] https://puri.sm/road-to-fsf-ryf-endorsement-and-beyond/ https://puri.sm/road-to-fsf-ryf-endorsement-and-beyond/ Note that the FSF hasn't actually endorsed them yet, although this page is supposed to convince you that they're awful close. Why not wait until they're actually endorsed? In the meantime, you can buy Libreboot X200s here http://minifree.org/product/libreboot-x200/ http://minifree.org/product/libreboot-x200/ Or you can replace a Thinkpad X200's firmware yourself by following these steps (hardware required) http://libreboot.org/docs/install/x200_external.html http://libreboot.org/docs/install/x200_external.html

40 points by pauljonas 11y ago

Counterpoint: http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.de... Note: I use Mint. I'm just pointing out there's still so many issues that anecdotal articles have no weight due to variance in user's experience largely determined by hardware and apps used. I will also note that it disturbs me that some of these problems were in UNIX Hater's Handbook a long, long time ago. Still there.

arfar 11y ago
Is this your blog? Just thought you might like to know that "Trend Micro OfficeScan" detects this website as a "fraud page or threat source"
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  No it's not. Mine wouldn't be as apologetic to those repeating same mistakes for decades. It also would be low risk as I use text files and HTML 3.2. ;)
anonbanker 11y ago
Gotta vehemently disagree with one of the issues listed: If you used OSSv1 or v2, or v3, you would understand why OSSv4 failed: You had to _pay_ for sound card drivers in linux. I had an Opti OPL3-SA sound card. The card cost $19 new. In order to use it in linux, I had to pay 4Front $25 to use the damn thing in linux. if I didn't pay the ransom for hardware I already owned, I was limited to 30 minutes of sound output. then I had to not just modprobe, but wipe cruft from my filesystem and reinstall. It cost $5 more to buy a Yamaha sound card than I would've paid 4front, but they didn't deserve a dime of my money, and Yamaha's drivers were free. Alsa may suck, but it's free and good enough. and 4Front doesn't deserve to have its code in the linux kernel.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  I could see why that wouldn't be popular. But you're also saying it was unacceptable that people didn't do a lot of work for you for free. As in, FOSS crowd isn't doing it, almost no market for it, someone does it for a fee, and it isn't acceptable due to the fee. Kind of like buying a Yamaha bike, demanding different steering + tires, them saying no due to costs vs demand, offering to do it for a fee, and you say "why would I pay for the mod if I already bought the bike?" Then they stare at you confused.
  - anonbanker 11y ago
    if OPTi had written the drivers, sure, I might have paid. Just to show that linux support is appreciated. In fact, this is a decent driver model, if companies actually wanted to make us put our money where our mouth is. However, 4front held people for _ransom_ on a free operating system. that's way different. that's Bitkeeper-made-git-happen levels of different.
    - nickpsecurity 11y ago
      "However, 4front held people for _ransom_ on a free operating system. that's way different. that's Bitkeeper-made-git-happen levels of different." What do you mean by that specifically? You're fine with people charging for drivers but they apparently did something specific that was worse.
digi_owl 11y ago
I keep reading and i keep finding that his references either do not back his point, or are basically a problem because of intransigent proprietary suppliers (see Torvalds "fuck you Nvidia"). Then again there are no singular "desktop". There is the media consumption desktop, the media production desktop, the gaming desktop, the office production desktop, etc etc etc. In the end though, the basic problem is that unless some company pulls an Apple and start selling Linux preinstalled out of physical stores with knowledgeable staff for walk in support, the market will be stuck with Windows. This simply because that is what everyone tests against, because that is the largest market, and you got your catch 22 going. Never mind that MS have a history of playing lip service to standard definitions (embrace, extend, extinguish anyone?).
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  I recognized many personally and clicked on some but not most or all. Now that you mentioned it, I click on more to find that your right: some references straight up contradict the claim being made. Wth... Might have to make a revised version of it. Many of them are hardware-related but you can't solely blame it on proprietary hardware. The times where work was put in got things done. Tons of work has been put into Linux with all kinds of features and fixes. There's even enterprise distro's aimed at business desktops bringing in revenue. Yet, core functionality for desktops has problems it's had for a long time that can only be explained by lack of effort. So, author's (and my) point still stands even after knocking out bad references or ignoring truly hardware-specific problems. If you doubt it, just check out autotools to see the state of software maintenance that sometimes shows up in FOSS UNIX's. ;)

otterpro 11y ago

I currently use Debian for all the servers, and I cannot imagine using any other OS beside Linux for servers. I've also played with everything from ancient VAX mainframe, SUN OS, all kinds of BSD flavors, and my first experience using Linux was with Slackware distro on a PC with first gen Pentium. The desktop is another story. Ever since Ubuntu came out, I was a fan, and I still remember being excited when I received each new release of Ubuntu on CD/DVD with stickers in the mail, all free from Canonical... Good old days... Eventually, I went all-in to make Ubuntu my only desktop OS. However, I ran into few obstacles, which could be overcome with research and asking questions, but eventually I just didn't have enough energy or time to fix things. I really wanted it to work. I'd still like to start using Linux as a desktop for running just browsers/emails/shell/vim, but anything else, it is difficult. (Still looking for Camtasia/screenflow, Adobe Premiere alternative on Linux) A non-technical friend decided to try Ubuntu because he was so tired of running Windows and couldn't justify spending money on Mac. But he ran into issues like audio not working. I'm sure he could've found solution to getting the audio working, or perhaps bought a compatible USB audio to make it work, but these "annoyances" were definitely not pleasant experience. I really wanted him to succeed, but eventually he bit the bullet and just got a Macbook. Perhaps desktop for a common user is no longer relevant, as mobile OS (android/ios) have taken over some of this space. However, I agree that Linux as a desktop is important since it provides an alternative, but I still wish that things could be better.

anonbanker 11y ago
PulseAudio is pretty stable nowadays. 6 or 7 years after it was released and made the default audio manager for most distros. I still have issues with HDMI audio not switching when plugging in HDMI, that completely disappear when I set JACK as the audio manager, and make PA it's slave. but nobody uses JACK except for the Pro Audio guys. NetworkManager had a similar trajectory: Started off buggy as hell, and eventually got to a point where you didn't think about it. Both of these apps were written by the same person, and were later fixed by a team of other people. Both of these apps have cost me linux conversions, to the point that I would have a list of supported laptops (and caveats) maintained in order to deal with the quirks I found. I heavily recommend Calculate Linux Scratch KDE[0] as a base distribution for Desktops. Try it and see if I'm wrong. Also, Silentcast[1] solves your Camtasia issue, and I'd be surprised if Kdenlive[2] didn't solve your Premiere needs. 0. http://www.calculate-linux.org/main/en/download http://www.calculate-linux.org/main/en/download 1. https://github.com/colinkeenan/silentcast https://github.com/colinkeenan/silentcast 2. https://kdenlive.org/ https://kdenlive.org/

unsignedint 11y ago

I ended up in Linux -- mostly for my preference couple years ago. But looking at the landscape today, simply there aren't any alternatives anymore. I share the author's sentiment about Google, but for the other reason -- it's the fact their service often works better than their competitors, not only they have Chrome available for Linux, Google's Music, and movie service works better than many competitors out there. (I guess they have incentive to make it work on Linux, as Chromebooks are pretty much Linux-based -- which may not necessarily the QA objective other companies would look into.) I really hope Linux will be able to break the 10% mark, if not becoming hugely popular. If 1/10 of people are not being access to certain content, it becomes harder for content providers to ignore Linux users.

anta40 11y ago

For me, completely abandoning Windows at the moment is impossible. Obvious reason: PC game :p Linux itself makes a excellent tinkering platform, though. And for daily use I think it's relatively "user-friendlier" than a decade ago. Of course I mean user-friendlier for the average PC users, not just hardcore geeks.

chadzawistowski 11y ago

Sorry to pick nits, and maybe this is a tired chord, but Purism does not make "laptops built entirely with non-proprietary hardware and software, or as much as can be done at this point". The only big difference between a Purism laptop and other laptops (Acer, Asus, Dell, etc.) is that the CPU has been fused to allow running unsigned firmware. Unfortunately, since we still don't have free firmware to run in place of Intel's, Purism has no present advantage over buying most any laptop and installing Linux yourself. There do exist true FSF-approved laptops, but the current best of these (Libreboot X60 and X200) are essentially refurbished ~2008 Thinkpads. They are so old because Intel was only beginning to sign firmware -- those are the most recent CPUs for which signing firmware has been cracked. Purism loudly trumpets their roadmaps[0] and plans[1] so as to suggest a trajectory towards totally free software, but until they achieve it their product is not worth a premium compared to installing Linux on an ultrabook of your choice. [0] https://puri.sm/posts/roadmap-to-a-completely-free-bios/ https://puri.sm/posts/roadmap-to-a-completely-free-bios/ Here they outline many things that need to be done. But note the language- "Purism’s goal is to publish a Free Software implementation ... as soon as an implementation is available." But who is responsible for implementing it? [1] https://puri.sm/road-to-fsf-ryf-endorsement-and-beyond/ https://puri.sm/road-to-fsf-ryf-endorsement-and-beyond/ Note that the FSF hasn't actually endorsed them yet, although this page is supposed to convince you that they're awful close. Why not wait until they're actually endorsed? In the meantime, you can buy Libreboot X200s here http://minifree.org/product/libreboot-x200/ http://minifree.org/product/libreboot-x200/ Or you can replace a Thinkpad X200's firmware yourself by following these steps (hardware required) http://libreboot.org/docs/install/x200_external.html http://libreboot.org/docs/install/x200_external.html