4 ms·

If HR tells you "if XYZ happens, you're fired" it's time to look for a new job.

by brodo 11y ago

engi_nerd 11y ago
Yes. "Performance Improvement Plans" are also the kiss of death. When it looks like you're about to be placed under one, fairly or not, you should attempt to find other employment ASAP.
- exodust 11y ago
  "Performance" can be seen as your ability to play ball with bullshit things and people at work. Outdated inefficient systems you're expected to use instead of building something new, for example. So you apply some resistance, apply initiative, and get smacked down for your efforts. Or when you're supposed to work with someone who is an expert at sticky note presentations or motivational bullshit-speak, but literally nothing else. So you distance yourself from them and they complain to your boss that you're not keeping them in loop. Now your "communication skills" takes a hit. If you never get in trouble at work, be worried. You might just be a boring sod who does what you're told, never takes risks and could easily be replaced. But then again, just do what you feel is right. In my case, I didn't want to die from boredom, so stirring the pot (as respectfully as possible) was required.
  - grogenaut 11y ago
    Why do you want to stay if this signals stuff you don't like?
    - exodust 11y ago
      Same reason you sometimes want to stay in a relationship but at the same time get the hell away. There are good and not so good things about any job/relationship.
  - amyjess 11y ago
    > "Performance" can be seen as your ability to play ball with bullshit things and people at work. Bingo. At my last job, my boss placed me on a PIP largely as retaliation against me over office politics. I started looking for a new job that day, and I accepted the first offer I took just to get out of there before they could fire me.
- hwstar 11y ago
  Or as soon as you are asked to sign a PIP the relationship has soured and you should be looking for a new job, or if you have FU money, resign.
  - grogenaut 11y ago
    Or as Homer says "Just go in and do a really half assed job". You're already on PIP, you could likely do 0 work for the duration of the PIP while you look for other jobs and switch.
    - hwstar 11y ago
      The problem with that is that it leaves a record of the bad performance which can be accessed through the HR back channel. Better to quit while you are ahead.
      - grogenaut 11y ago
        I think if you're already on PIP you'd have this problem anyway.
  - iofj 11y ago
    You can, and of course, should, refuse to sign any document detailing additional job requirements. If you are presented with a PIP you should fold the paper, put it in your pocket, and inform the other party that said paper will be used in legal action should it become necessary, and that you will not accept any changes or additional requirements to the job function that are not mutually agreed upon, that you will not be threatened into signing any document that states otherwise. Then you should ask if there's anything to talk about. If the manager then proceeds to go to HR, they will be very nervous about taking action against you, as you've shown that you may resort to legal action against the company, and the manager has just given you a piece of documentation that generally hasn't been reviewed by HR/legal beforehand. The thing is, a court could easily find such a document constitutes coercion, or if poorly worded ("you will no longer have access to ...", or, God help an employer who does this, "your pay/pension/hours/... will be reduced by xxx" for instance) can be constituted as breach of contract, an attempt to force someone to quit (or worse: an attempt to force you to do something unrelated to your work), or ... Keep in mind that employers aren't generally all that likely to win labor cases. There's even a legal principle here, in case of doubt, the weakest party is considered in the right, which is the employee. There is no burder of proof, only "begin of proof" (you must show something that a reasonable person would interpret as indicating that what you say is true, the paper they gave you to sign would definitely be considered unassailable, even if it's easy to fake). And there's another factor : penalties for being in the wrong as an employer are gigantic (damages for wrongful termination can be 2 years pay, with no obligation in return, in other words, payable within 14 days and you free to get another job even before that). Penalties for being in the wrong as a worker are generally that nothing happens (you're not even fired, and you can't be fired because of the legal action. As you can imagine, the legal system reacts very, very strongly to attempts to circumvent the legal system or punish using the legal system). Legal costs for using labor courts are generally reduced or waived entirely, and unions may provide labor lawyers as a service, for free. Of course, IANAL, and you should get legal advice, frankly, before you're put in this situation. Almost any legal firm will give you a 30-minute or so exploratory meeting with a lawyer for free where you can ask questions.
exodust 11y ago
Or just avoid XYZ.
- anon4 11y ago
  Kind of hard to do when it's vague enough that it can be reinterpreted a thousand different ways.

If HR tells you "if XYZ happens, you're fired" it's time to look for a new job.

by brodo 11y ago

If HR tells you "if XYZ happens, you're fired" it's time to look for a new job.

Yes. "Performance Improvement Plans" are also the kiss of death. When it looks like you're about to be placed under one, fairly or not, you should attempt to find other employment ASAP.

exodust 11y ago
"Performance" can be seen as your ability to play ball with bullshit things and people at work. Outdated inefficient systems you're expected to use instead of building something new, for example. So you apply some resistance, apply initiative, and get smacked down for your efforts. Or when you're supposed to work with someone who is an expert at sticky note presentations or motivational bullshit-speak, but literally nothing else. So you distance yourself from them and they complain to your boss that you're not keeping them in loop. Now your "communication skills" takes a hit. If you never get in trouble at work, be worried. You might just be a boring sod who does what you're told, never takes risks and could easily be replaced. But then again, just do what you feel is right. In my case, I didn't want to die from boredom, so stirring the pot (as respectfully as possible) was required.
- grogenaut 11y ago
  Why do you want to stay if this signals stuff you don't like?
  - exodust 11y ago
    Same reason you sometimes want to stay in a relationship but at the same time get the hell away. There are good and not so good things about any job/relationship.
- amyjess 11y ago
  > "Performance" can be seen as your ability to play ball with bullshit things and people at work. Bingo. At my last job, my boss placed me on a PIP largely as retaliation against me over office politics. I started looking for a new job that day, and I accepted the first offer I took just to get out of there before they could fire me.
hwstar 11y ago
Or as soon as you are asked to sign a PIP the relationship has soured and you should be looking for a new job, or if you have FU money, resign.
- grogenaut 11y ago
  Or as Homer says "Just go in and do a really half assed job". You're already on PIP, you could likely do 0 work for the duration of the PIP while you look for other jobs and switch.
  - hwstar 11y ago
    The problem with that is that it leaves a record of the bad performance which can be accessed through the HR back channel. Better to quit while you are ahead.
    - grogenaut 11y ago
      I think if you're already on PIP you'd have this problem anyway.
- iofj 11y ago
  You can, and of course, should, refuse to sign any document detailing additional job requirements. If you are presented with a PIP you should fold the paper, put it in your pocket, and inform the other party that said paper will be used in legal action should it become necessary, and that you will not accept any changes or additional requirements to the job function that are not mutually agreed upon, that you will not be threatened into signing any document that states otherwise. Then you should ask if there's anything to talk about. If the manager then proceeds to go to HR, they will be very nervous about taking action against you, as you've shown that you may resort to legal action against the company, and the manager has just given you a piece of documentation that generally hasn't been reviewed by HR/legal beforehand. The thing is, a court could easily find such a document constitutes coercion, or if poorly worded ("you will no longer have access to ...", or, God help an employer who does this, "your pay/pension/hours/... will be reduced by xxx" for instance) can be constituted as breach of contract, an attempt to force someone to quit (or worse: an attempt to force you to do something unrelated to your work), or ... Keep in mind that employers aren't generally all that likely to win labor cases. There's even a legal principle here, in case of doubt, the weakest party is considered in the right, which is the employee. There is no burder of proof, only "begin of proof" (you must show something that a reasonable person would interpret as indicating that what you say is true, the paper they gave you to sign would definitely be considered unassailable, even if it's easy to fake). And there's another factor : penalties for being in the wrong as an employer are gigantic (damages for wrongful termination can be 2 years pay, with no obligation in return, in other words, payable within 14 days and you free to get another job even before that). Penalties for being in the wrong as a worker are generally that nothing happens (you're not even fired, and you can't be fired because of the legal action. As you can imagine, the legal system reacts very, very strongly to attempts to circumvent the legal system or punish using the legal system). Legal costs for using labor courts are generally reduced or waived entirely, and unions may provide labor lawyers as a service, for free. Of course, IANAL, and you should get legal advice, frankly, before you're put in this situation. Almost any legal firm will give you a 30-minute or so exploratory meeting with a lawyer for free where you can ask questions.

exodust 11y ago

Or just avoid XYZ.

anon4 11y ago
Kind of hard to do when it's vague enough that it can be reinterpreted a thousand different ways.