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It is mostly signaling + one upping each other. But they managed to turn me from moderate liberal (in the EU sense, I guess I am raving socialist by US) to com

It is mostly signaling + one upping each other. But they managed to turn me from moderate liberal (in the EU sense, I guess I am raving socialist by US) to complete nihilist. I want to see Trump elected just to piss them off.

golergka 11y ago
Labels are stupid anyway. I got detained by police on a demonstrations in support of gay rights and democratic elections. But at the same time, I believe that flat tax (not flat tax rate as in % of income, but flat tax as in constant amount of money per month) is the most just form of taxation. Not even remotely feasible, of course, and it would be very stupid to even try to implement it, but still, the most just in theory. Now — does it make me left or right?
- iMark 11y ago
  Could you expand upon your definition of flat tax? Is, for example, the constant amount of money you mention the same of every member of the populace regardless of income? If so, it bears semblance with the UK's poll tax (or Community Charge as it was officially labelled), an early 90's tax which was disastrously received (riots in the streets across the country). It introduced by a right wing government, and subsequently repealed
  - arethuza 11y ago
    And it's not like it was just people who are "naturally" on the left who thought the Poll Tax was unfair - the Duke of Westminster (one of the largest landowners in the UK) apparently paid the tax for lots of his employees as he thought it was unfair that he should pay the same amount of tax as them.
  - golergka 11y ago
    > Is, for example, the constant amount of money you mention the same of every member of the populace regardless of income? Yes. > If so, it bears semblance with the UK's poll tax (or Community Charge as it was officially labelled), an early 90's tax which was disastrously received (riots in the streets across the country). I didn't know about it, but it's exactly how I imagined it would turn out in reality.
- js8 11y ago
  > Now — does it make me left or right? I think it makes you confused. :-) Which is an OK state to be in, and it's up to you if you want to change that. Let me explain. I think left vs right means how much you care about people when it comes to their relative power and social status in society. If you don't like power inequality, then you're on the left. If you enjoy it or are indifferent to it, then you're on the right. Now democracy is a distinctly leftist concept, because it explicitly gives everybody the same political power. Gay rights, well, it's a little aside from this classification but basically equal rights for everybody is in the same ballpark (that's why most equal rights movements are considered leftist). On the other hand, supporting flat tax is somewhat alluding to the idea that money do not influence power relationships in society. Which is AFAICT empirically false. I do however think that you can recognize flat tax as being just under that assumption. You do seem to care about distribution of power in society, which makes you leftist. So I think the question is, do you believe in that assumption, that income has no influence on political power (and it cannot, for instance, limit personal freedom of other people)?
  - Canada 11y ago
    > Now democracy is a distinctly leftist concept This one dimensional left vs. right can't accurately describe anything. Even the subject of wealth redistribution is too nuanced to be properly described or debated with this oversimplified left/right paradigm.
    - js8 11y ago
      They are broad categories, I agree, but my definition is consistent with the historical usage. Left/right originated in the French parliament, where on the left were proponents of political equality (you could perhaps, with a stretch, call them democrats), while on the right were proponents of keeping the hereditary privileges of the nobility. The definition of left/right I gave describes a very general moral principle. Of course there are many flavours of left and right, depending on the exact interpretation, and they don't agree in many things. However, you didn't give any argument why is democracy not leftist, according to the above, historically accurate, definition. GP asked if he is left or right, I gave an answer.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Political labels are a total disaster. First of all, they promote this kind of ultra-low-resolution discussion where people pattern-match what other say to some political ideology and then dismiss it because that ideology is obviously bad. What we desperately need is to talk about details - whether this or that particular solution is good for that particular problem. For instance - should we internalize emission externalities by instituting a CO₂ tax? If so, then how high and why? Should we offset increasing automation with basic income or something else? Etc. Labeling it all as "communist" and dismissing it wholesale is about the most idiotic thing a human being can do in a discussion. Secondly, they promote this lunacy in thinking. Instead of trying to understand problems and picking ideas that may work, people adopt ideologies wholesale. "I am a libertarian, therefore I support free market everywhere", whether it makes sense or not. Or conversely, others want to regulate everything because their reasoning is basically "regulation is good". This is not science. It's not even religion. It's mindless tribalism. I see no other choice for humanity to move forward than trying to isolate that kind of politics from anything meaningful, just like we mostly did with religion in the West. If people want to endlessly debate who patternmatches better to one of their favourite history villains, fine. Let's just keep that type of thinking away from the process of deciding where to build a new nuclear power plant.
Canada 11y ago
> I want to see Trump elected just to piss them off. Me too. Many times over the past 6 months I wish I had a "TRUMP 2016" T-Shirt. Really, I don't even like the guy. I don't respect him. It's not as if he has a coherent philosophy anyway. It's just that he best represents the contempt I feel for the whole political process, all discourse surrounding it, and especially for the people who buy into the bullshit of anyone in the running.
seivan 11y ago
Only moderate liberal? I've gone to the deep end of the right. Though I still advocate the regular progressive stuff: abortion, LGBT rights and immigration. I think Pim Fortyn was the last person who'd share my sentiment, but he got killed by a "social justice warrior". It's funny to see LGBT-right advocates side with radical islamists. I guess gay rights doesn't mean shit when you can get a huge muslim voting cattle.
- golergka 11y ago
  > It's funny to see LGBT-right advocates side with radical islamists. After talking to these people, I've repeatedly heard arguments like "well, they have been born in Ramallah, not Florida". Which is the worst kind of racism: thinking that certain groups of people just don't have to adhere to the same standards, essentially, treating them as kids and not responsible adults. Kids that attach people to trucks and drag them through the streets for being gay. But hey, they're oppressed themselves, so it's not really their fault.

golergka 11y ago

Labels are stupid anyway. I got detained by police on a demonstrations in support of gay rights and democratic elections. But at the same time, I believe that flat tax (not flat tax rate as in % of income, but flat tax as in constant amount of money per month) is the most just form of taxation. Not even remotely feasible, of course, and it would be very stupid to even try to implement it, but still, the most just in theory. Now — does it make me left or right?

iMark 11y ago
Could you expand upon your definition of flat tax? Is, for example, the constant amount of money you mention the same of every member of the populace regardless of income? If so, it bears semblance with the UK's poll tax (or Community Charge as it was officially labelled), an early 90's tax which was disastrously received (riots in the streets across the country). It introduced by a right wing government, and subsequently repealed
- arethuza 11y ago
  And it's not like it was just people who are "naturally" on the left who thought the Poll Tax was unfair - the Duke of Westminster (one of the largest landowners in the UK) apparently paid the tax for lots of his employees as he thought it was unfair that he should pay the same amount of tax as them.
- golergka 11y ago
  > Is, for example, the constant amount of money you mention the same of every member of the populace regardless of income? Yes. > If so, it bears semblance with the UK's poll tax (or Community Charge as it was officially labelled), an early 90's tax which was disastrously received (riots in the streets across the country). I didn't know about it, but it's exactly how I imagined it would turn out in reality.
js8 11y ago
> Now — does it make me left or right? I think it makes you confused. :-) Which is an OK state to be in, and it's up to you if you want to change that. Let me explain. I think left vs right means how much you care about people when it comes to their relative power and social status in society. If you don't like power inequality, then you're on the left. If you enjoy it or are indifferent to it, then you're on the right. Now democracy is a distinctly leftist concept, because it explicitly gives everybody the same political power. Gay rights, well, it's a little aside from this classification but basically equal rights for everybody is in the same ballpark (that's why most equal rights movements are considered leftist). On the other hand, supporting flat tax is somewhat alluding to the idea that money do not influence power relationships in society. Which is AFAICT empirically false. I do however think that you can recognize flat tax as being just under that assumption. You do seem to care about distribution of power in society, which makes you leftist. So I think the question is, do you believe in that assumption, that income has no influence on political power (and it cannot, for instance, limit personal freedom of other people)?
- Canada 11y ago
  > Now democracy is a distinctly leftist concept This one dimensional left vs. right can't accurately describe anything. Even the subject of wealth redistribution is too nuanced to be properly described or debated with this oversimplified left/right paradigm.
  - js8 11y ago
    They are broad categories, I agree, but my definition is consistent with the historical usage. Left/right originated in the French parliament, where on the left were proponents of political equality (you could perhaps, with a stretch, call them democrats), while on the right were proponents of keeping the hereditary privileges of the nobility. The definition of left/right I gave describes a very general moral principle. Of course there are many flavours of left and right, depending on the exact interpretation, and they don't agree in many things. However, you didn't give any argument why is democracy not leftist, according to the above, historically accurate, definition. GP asked if he is left or right, I gave an answer.
TeMPOraL 11y ago
Political labels are a total disaster. First of all, they promote this kind of ultra-low-resolution discussion where people pattern-match what other say to some political ideology and then dismiss it because that ideology is obviously bad. What we desperately need is to talk about details - whether this or that particular solution is good for that particular problem. For instance - should we internalize emission externalities by instituting a CO₂ tax? If so, then how high and why? Should we offset increasing automation with basic income or something else? Etc. Labeling it all as "communist" and dismissing it wholesale is about the most idiotic thing a human being can do in a discussion. Secondly, they promote this lunacy in thinking. Instead of trying to understand problems and picking ideas that may work, people adopt ideologies wholesale. "I am a libertarian, therefore I support free market everywhere", whether it makes sense or not. Or conversely, others want to regulate everything because their reasoning is basically "regulation is good". This is not science. It's not even religion. It's mindless tribalism. I see no other choice for humanity to move forward than trying to isolate that kind of politics from anything meaningful, just like we mostly did with religion in the West. If people want to endlessly debate who patternmatches better to one of their favourite history villains, fine. Let's just keep that type of thinking away from the process of deciding where to build a new nuclear power plant.

Canada 11y ago

> I want to see Trump elected just to piss them off. Me too. Many times over the past 6 months I wish I had a "TRUMP 2016" T-Shirt. Really, I don't even like the guy. I don't respect him. It's not as if he has a coherent philosophy anyway. It's just that he best represents the contempt I feel for the whole political process, all discourse surrounding it, and especially for the people who buy into the bullshit of anyone in the running.

seivan 11y ago

Only moderate liberal? I've gone to the deep end of the right. Though I still advocate the regular progressive stuff: abortion, LGBT rights and immigration. I think Pim Fortyn was the last person who'd share my sentiment, but he got killed by a "social justice warrior". It's funny to see LGBT-right advocates side with radical islamists. I guess gay rights doesn't mean shit when you can get a huge muslim voting cattle.

golergka 11y ago
> It's funny to see LGBT-right advocates side with radical islamists. After talking to these people, I've repeatedly heard arguments like "well, they have been born in Ramallah, not Florida". Which is the worst kind of racism: thinking that certain groups of people just don't have to adhere to the same standards, essentially, treating them as kids and not responsible adults. Kids that attach people to trucks and drag them through the streets for being gay. But hey, they're oppressed themselves, so it's not really their fault.