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> It's wishful thinking. The rules don't drive rewards to the top. It's intrinsic to the free market. No it isn't, we make the rules of the market, and we coul

> It's wishful thinking. The rules don't drive rewards to the top. It's intrinsic to the free market. No it isn't, we make the rules of the market, and we could just as easily change those rules to force companies to give more of their earnings to their employees rather than filtering it all up to the top. The market is what we make it, it has no intrinsic nature. The rules are rigged, by and for the wealthy, that is a fact.

brbsix 11y ago
The companies themselves don't really have any capacity to enforce these "rules", they have to petition the government to do so. The end result is regulatory capture. How do you expect to "force companies to give more of their earnings to their employees rather than filtering it all up to the top"? More government, I guess? We've seen how this goes.
- gnaritas 11y ago
  As just one example, tax reform[1], punish companies with high gaps between their highest and lowest paid workers. It's quite easy to force companies to do things, you just change the rules. When a company does better, the benefits of that productivity should not all go to the top; the employees should share in the wealth they created. Companies who share their wealth with their employees would get more favorable tax rates. Incentives matter. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/harold-meyerson-californias-bid-to-tax-ceos-who-dont-share-the-wealth/2014/04/30/fc08619c-d07e-11e3-a6b1-45c4dffb85a6_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/harold-meyerson-cali...
  - sokoloff 11y ago
    Yes, and these incentives are likely to cause companies to use subsidiaries and contract workers, so that their employee count is lower and the median wage of those employees higher. It's not clear to me that's a win for anyone other than consulting companies, tax prep and CPA firms.
    - gnaritas 11y ago
      > Yes, and these incentives are likely to cause companies to use subsidiaries and contract workers Only if the proposed change in rules contains such glaringly obvious loopholes; but I doubt that'll be the case, as the people trying to solve the problem have thought about it for more than 5 minutes.
      - jessaustin 11y ago
        Do you believe that "loopholes" are real things that really exist?
        Spooky23 11y ago
        Remember the SUV tax rules in the late 1990s and early 2000s? I recall the taxpayer making a substantial contribution to my truck purchase.
        jessaustin 11y ago
        Did you know that truck manufacturers hire lobbyists who "help" legislators write the laws?
- Avshalom 11y ago
  You could always dissolve the legal concept of the publicly owned corporation and only allow employee owned corporations. Thats actually less government, because right now we have a government that has to write and enforce laws for both forms of business.
  - gnaritas 11y ago
    Exactly, simple rule changes like that could radically alter society. Not that I agree or disagree, but that example does support the main point, the rules matter and can be changed.
    - Avshalom 11y ago
      Oh its almost certainly a terrible idea (at least if done that drastically) if for no other reason that massive upheavals of the status quo tend to harm the poor the most. It is just yes an example of the sort of "fundamental" of our economy that's actually just the result of some rules we made ourselves, not something inherent in capitalism or free markets. Less drastically you could make employee/consumer owned businesses dramatically more tax advantaged giving them an economic edge and then just seeing what happens. Might turn out awful but its certainly possible.
      - gnaritas 11y ago
        Yup, exactly my suggestion elsewhere in this thread.
meagain20000 11y ago
Let's agree to disagree. While the current system, at least in the USA, is not perfect, it is still better than other systems tried in other countries. Things that I would fix is decrease corruption as much as possible. What you are advocating is communism. If you really believe in your system start a company and employ your ideals. I'm sure you will have no lack of talented individuals wanting to work for you for a greater piece of the pie. In no time you should be able to destroy that evil Walmart corporation that practically enslaves its employees. Please try it and prove us all wrong I don't want to sound harsh but there really are people that deserve what's coming to them. In my high school too many kids wasted their time while trying their best for me to also waste my time. They had all these incredible opportunities to better themselves and still ended up as loosers destined to work minimum wage. And now you are saying that that is unfair and they deserve more. I think not. They deserve what they work for. The USA will give you rent assistance, medicaid, food coupons, financial aid, student loans and if you still cannot drag yourself to college then it is on you. I know because I come from all the way in the bottom. The only thing that stopped all my friends from following was: nothing.
- gnaritas 11y ago
  > While the current system, at least in the USA, is not perfect, it is still better than other systems tried in other countries. No one said it wasn't. > Things that I would fix is decrease corruption as much as possible. As would I. > What you are advocating is communism. No it isn't, tax reform is not communism, I suggest you bone up on what communism actually is before continuing this conversation, nothing I said is in any way communist. > I don't want to sound harsh but there really are people that deserve what's coming to them. In my high school too many kids wasted their time while trying their best for me to also waste my time. They had all these incredible opportunities to better themselves and still ended up as losers destined to work minimum wage. And now you are saying that that is unfair and they deserve more. I think not. They deserve what they work for. You are suffering from the just world fallacy.
  - puredemo 11y ago
    >You are suffering from the just world fallacy. I think you're projecting. He is saying the world is harsh and unfair, and people need to work hard to mitigate that. That isn't a fallacy.

brbsix 11y ago

The companies themselves don't really have any capacity to enforce these "rules", they have to petition the government to do so. The end result is regulatory capture. How do you expect to "force companies to give more of their earnings to their employees rather than filtering it all up to the top"? More government, I guess? We've seen how this goes.

gnaritas 11y ago
As just one example, tax reform[1], punish companies with high gaps between their highest and lowest paid workers. It's quite easy to force companies to do things, you just change the rules. When a company does better, the benefits of that productivity should not all go to the top; the employees should share in the wealth they created. Companies who share their wealth with their employees would get more favorable tax rates. Incentives matter. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/harold-meyerson-californias-bid-to-tax-ceos-who-dont-share-the-wealth/2014/04/30/fc08619c-d07e-11e3-a6b1-45c4dffb85a6_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/harold-meyerson-cali...
- sokoloff 11y ago
  Yes, and these incentives are likely to cause companies to use subsidiaries and contract workers, so that their employee count is lower and the median wage of those employees higher. It's not clear to me that's a win for anyone other than consulting companies, tax prep and CPA firms.
  - gnaritas 11y ago
    > Yes, and these incentives are likely to cause companies to use subsidiaries and contract workers Only if the proposed change in rules contains such glaringly obvious loopholes; but I doubt that'll be the case, as the people trying to solve the problem have thought about it for more than 5 minutes.
    - jessaustin 11y ago
      Do you believe that "loopholes" are real things that really exist?
      - Spooky23 11y ago
        Remember the SUV tax rules in the late 1990s and early 2000s? I recall the taxpayer making a substantial contribution to my truck purchase.
        jessaustin 11y ago
        Did you know that truck manufacturers hire lobbyists who "help" legislators write the laws?
Avshalom 11y ago
You could always dissolve the legal concept of the publicly owned corporation and only allow employee owned corporations. Thats actually less government, because right now we have a government that has to write and enforce laws for both forms of business.
- gnaritas 11y ago
  Exactly, simple rule changes like that could radically alter society. Not that I agree or disagree, but that example does support the main point, the rules matter and can be changed.
  - Avshalom 11y ago
    Oh its almost certainly a terrible idea (at least if done that drastically) if for no other reason that massive upheavals of the status quo tend to harm the poor the most. It is just yes an example of the sort of "fundamental" of our economy that's actually just the result of some rules we made ourselves, not something inherent in capitalism or free markets. Less drastically you could make employee/consumer owned businesses dramatically more tax advantaged giving them an economic edge and then just seeing what happens. Might turn out awful but its certainly possible.
    - gnaritas 11y ago
      Yup, exactly my suggestion elsewhere in this thread.

meagain20000 11y ago

Let's agree to disagree. While the current system, at least in the USA, is not perfect, it is still better than other systems tried in other countries. Things that I would fix is decrease corruption as much as possible. What you are advocating is communism. If you really believe in your system start a company and employ your ideals. I'm sure you will have no lack of talented individuals wanting to work for you for a greater piece of the pie. In no time you should be able to destroy that evil Walmart corporation that practically enslaves its employees. Please try it and prove us all wrong I don't want to sound harsh but there really are people that deserve what's coming to them. In my high school too many kids wasted their time while trying their best for me to also waste my time. They had all these incredible opportunities to better themselves and still ended up as loosers destined to work minimum wage. And now you are saying that that is unfair and they deserve more. I think not. They deserve what they work for. The USA will give you rent assistance, medicaid, food coupons, financial aid, student loans and if you still cannot drag yourself to college then it is on you. I know because I come from all the way in the bottom. The only thing that stopped all my friends from following was: nothing.

gnaritas 11y ago
> While the current system, at least in the USA, is not perfect, it is still better than other systems tried in other countries. No one said it wasn't. > Things that I would fix is decrease corruption as much as possible. As would I. > What you are advocating is communism. No it isn't, tax reform is not communism, I suggest you bone up on what communism actually is before continuing this conversation, nothing I said is in any way communist. > I don't want to sound harsh but there really are people that deserve what's coming to them. In my high school too many kids wasted their time while trying their best for me to also waste my time. They had all these incredible opportunities to better themselves and still ended up as losers destined to work minimum wage. And now you are saying that that is unfair and they deserve more. I think not. They deserve what they work for. You are suffering from the just world fallacy.
- puredemo 11y ago
  >You are suffering from the just world fallacy. I think you're projecting. He is saying the world is harsh and unfair, and people need to work hard to mitigate that. That isn't a fallacy.