7 ms·

I always had the struggles of the slightly older job seekers close to my heart. It's just something that employment policy doesn't address adequately. My fathe

I always had the struggles of the slightly older job seekers close to my heart. It's just something that employment policy doesn't address adequately. My father is in that situation - which is why, obviously, I feel it so close. He's slightly above 50, with qualifications (B.Sc. in Chemical Engineering) and a lot of experience. However, he has been jobless since his last company closed, 6 years ago. It's really a perfect shitstorm for people in his situation. He has a lot of experience, but in the manufacturing industry which, as we know, is being dislocated elsewhere (we live in Portugal). There's the competition of younger graduates, which are also unemployed. Of course, he's too young to retire. And he's been unemployed long enough, so state benefits expired; the last resort state benefit - for poverty, really - doesn't apply because my parents have a house (so, he'd have to sell the house to get the state benefit). Luckily he has some money set aside, but - again - this is Portugal. You can save some money with our wages, but not nearly enough to support such a tremendous amount of time unemployed. And, well, luckily I'm employed but the same reasoning applies: I'm able (and happy) to help, but I don't make nearly enough to be able to do so and still save for a rainy day.

tluyben2 11y ago
PT employment laws are not helping either. I had a company there with employees and it all just is too protective of them. So you rather not employ someone. I thought the Netherlands was bad but PT and ES are far worse. And that is definitely hurting hiring.
- paulojreis 11y ago
  That's something employers usually complain about. Portuguese legislation was mostly written in a socialist-led post-revolution period, so you certainly have a point. But what was your biggest issue with employment laws, here? The compensation you'd eventually have to pay when firing someone?
  - tluyben2 11y ago
    If someone is really bad you have issues firing them. I mean if someone watches pr0n all day in NL you just collect proof and that's; in PT we had to pay for the guy even then. That is a perverse incentive for employees; just get through the trial and then jerk off. I am a left wing voter and I am for employee protection but you need to be able to punish abuse and as far as we found we could not in PT nor in ES. Edit: and to make sure; if an employee is good we will do anything we can afford to keep her/him; we are not the employer frauders like Oracle is in Malaga you also encounter...
    - paulojreis 11y ago
      I agree. I haven't met such extreme cases, but I've seen situations where the employee simply did not have the competence nor the will to acquire it. Lack of a given competence is tolerable, but not trying to address that limitation, for me, is a big issue. In such cases, employee protection will certainly result in rather perverse effects - not only for the employer, but for all the other employees (which will have to deal with less than acceptable output from the problematic one). Even socially, it grinds my gears to know that someone like that is employed when there are some many people which truly want to work. That being said, the employer still has some protection. You can hire someone for 3 or 6 months and then decide not to renew his contract. You can also use the experimental period clause to void the contract in the first two weeks up to three months, according to the contract duration. The latter is sometimes abused here: hire someone with a long-duration contract and then, just before the experimental period ends, send him away.
      - tluyben2 11y ago
        These were extreme cases we had in NL and PT. But also incompetence; that was an hiring snafu ofcourse but yes we had our fair share of people working hard during trial and then sitting back and basically drop the ball. No one was asking them to work like animals; 5-6 hrs a day. But we had many good experiences as well esp in Portugal. It is just the bad ones that make you scared...
        paulojreis 11y ago
- yulaow 11y ago
  In general in the big part of WE countries (except UK) there were, luckily, everywhere protective laws towards employees. It is a matter of preference, you have to decide if is better to protect the employer the most or the employees the most. Considering employees are the bigger part of the population, for me that I grown in this area, it seems most logic to protect them first. Also consider in the last 3-4 years almost all countries had weakened them in part, hoping it would change the work crisis situation (short answer, it changed nothing at all... except now workers are even more in danger to lose their jobs). I mean, luckily we have no madness like the "Fire at will" I heard a lot talking about in US, but the situation right now is starting to get unbalanced in favor of the employer, and I don't like that.
  - dasil003 11y ago
    So you're not concerned about the possibility that more companies could afford to hire right now but won't for fear they will not be able to afford the employee in the future?
  - gregpilling 11y ago
    I am an employer (manufacturing) in Arizona USA, a "Fire-at-will" state. If I did not have this privilege, I would not take the risk hiring job candidates who interview poorly. I would be compelled to take the obvious best choice every time, and to never take a risk. Risks are too costly. With Fire-at-Will I can take a chance on anyone. This is especially useful with lower lever, entry positions where they learn on the job. I have tried hiring all types; the results have been surprising. The sure thing employees aren't always, and the WTF employees sometimes surprise you. The woman in charge of my accounting, was an 18 year old goth cosplayer, moved from the warehouse to the office as helper during a layoff. She is now 22 (still goth/cosplayer) and does her job like she has 20 years experience. I would never ever have hired her for that job if I could not fire her easily. But she is great. This is the positive side of Fire-at-will. In practice, you never fire anyone on a whim because it destabilizes the rest of the employees. I only fire the people who need it, and by then most of the staff probably wants them gone anyway.
    - 11y ago
keithpeter 11y ago
My first thought was: What is the education system like in Portugal? Your father has good maths and knowledge at a problem solving level of applied science, and the kind of communication skills that come in middle management/technical jobs. Are there exams that teenagers have to take? Do those exams include mathematics/science content? Is there a market for 'coaches'? People who coach students in their home at an hourly rate? Context: I'm a teacher in the UK where we have quite an industry in private tutoring. Needs patience, readiness to read the textbooks and think how to explain the content, and ability to work with teenagers (a skill set that successful parents may have mastered:) My other thought was: how much do they actually need per month? Have they done a budget? I'll be retiring sometime next year and my occupational pension isn't huge. I'll need to make around 7 to 8 thousand pounds on top of it. I have some plans to generate income around that figure while also having some time.
- paulojreis 11y ago
  My father actually started his career as a math teacher, but he could also (obviously) teach chemistry. But private tutoring here is hell. Teachers are probably the most unemployed skilled professionals in Portugal. As you can imagine, one of the results (besides huge emigration) is a huge supply of private tutors and tutoring centres. About your other question, they (both my parents) probably could live off € 700,00 per month. It doesn't sound like much, but with the wages here it's very hard to put aside enough money to keep you going for years without a job (even with the low-ish cost of life here) Maybe I should give him a Breaking Bad box set :)
  - keithpeter 11y ago
    I suspected the situation you describe might be the case based on what we read here about Europe in the UK. OK: my only other thought is perhaps a bit odd: are there other manufacturing/ science based companies that are closing down/disintegrating? If so some part time work staying with them until they close and managing all the health and safety, asset disposal and equipment sales might be viable. I know a chap who did that in and around the Black Country (Midlands industrial belt near Birmingham and Wolverhampton) in the UK in the 80s when all the foundries were closing down and being sold to Bihar in India. I have no direct experience of that myself.

tluyben2 11y ago

PT employment laws are not helping either. I had a company there with employees and it all just is too protective of them. So you rather not employ someone. I thought the Netherlands was bad but PT and ES are far worse. And that is definitely hurting hiring.

paulojreis 11y ago
That's something employers usually complain about. Portuguese legislation was mostly written in a socialist-led post-revolution period, so you certainly have a point. But what was your biggest issue with employment laws, here? The compensation you'd eventually have to pay when firing someone?
- tluyben2 11y ago
  If someone is really bad you have issues firing them. I mean if someone watches pr0n all day in NL you just collect proof and that's; in PT we had to pay for the guy even then. That is a perverse incentive for employees; just get through the trial and then jerk off. I am a left wing voter and I am for employee protection but you need to be able to punish abuse and as far as we found we could not in PT nor in ES. Edit: and to make sure; if an employee is good we will do anything we can afford to keep her/him; we are not the employer frauders like Oracle is in Malaga you also encounter...
  - paulojreis 11y ago
    I agree. I haven't met such extreme cases, but I've seen situations where the employee simply did not have the competence nor the will to acquire it. Lack of a given competence is tolerable, but not trying to address that limitation, for me, is a big issue. In such cases, employee protection will certainly result in rather perverse effects - not only for the employer, but for all the other employees (which will have to deal with less than acceptable output from the problematic one). Even socially, it grinds my gears to know that someone like that is employed when there are some many people which truly want to work. That being said, the employer still has some protection. You can hire someone for 3 or 6 months and then decide not to renew his contract. You can also use the experimental period clause to void the contract in the first two weeks up to three months, according to the contract duration. The latter is sometimes abused here: hire someone with a long-duration contract and then, just before the experimental period ends, send him away.
    - tluyben2 11y ago
      These were extreme cases we had in NL and PT. But also incompetence; that was an hiring snafu ofcourse but yes we had our fair share of people working hard during trial and then sitting back and basically drop the ball. No one was asking them to work like animals; 5-6 hrs a day. But we had many good experiences as well esp in Portugal. It is just the bad ones that make you scared...
      - paulojreis 11y ago
yulaow 11y ago
In general in the big part of WE countries (except UK) there were, luckily, everywhere protective laws towards employees. It is a matter of preference, you have to decide if is better to protect the employer the most or the employees the most. Considering employees are the bigger part of the population, for me that I grown in this area, it seems most logic to protect them first. Also consider in the last 3-4 years almost all countries had weakened them in part, hoping it would change the work crisis situation (short answer, it changed nothing at all... except now workers are even more in danger to lose their jobs). I mean, luckily we have no madness like the "Fire at will" I heard a lot talking about in US, but the situation right now is starting to get unbalanced in favor of the employer, and I don't like that.
- dasil003 11y ago
  So you're not concerned about the possibility that more companies could afford to hire right now but won't for fear they will not be able to afford the employee in the future?
- gregpilling 11y ago
  I am an employer (manufacturing) in Arizona USA, a "Fire-at-will" state. If I did not have this privilege, I would not take the risk hiring job candidates who interview poorly. I would be compelled to take the obvious best choice every time, and to never take a risk. Risks are too costly. With Fire-at-Will I can take a chance on anyone. This is especially useful with lower lever, entry positions where they learn on the job. I have tried hiring all types; the results have been surprising. The sure thing employees aren't always, and the WTF employees sometimes surprise you. The woman in charge of my accounting, was an 18 year old goth cosplayer, moved from the warehouse to the office as helper during a layoff. She is now 22 (still goth/cosplayer) and does her job like she has 20 years experience. I would never ever have hired her for that job if I could not fire her easily. But she is great. This is the positive side of Fire-at-will. In practice, you never fire anyone on a whim because it destabilizes the rest of the employees. I only fire the people who need it, and by then most of the staff probably wants them gone anyway.
  - 11y ago

keithpeter 11y ago

My first thought was: What is the education system like in Portugal? Your father has good maths and knowledge at a problem solving level of applied science, and the kind of communication skills that come in middle management/technical jobs. Are there exams that teenagers have to take? Do those exams include mathematics/science content? Is there a market for 'coaches'? People who coach students in their home at an hourly rate? Context: I'm a teacher in the UK where we have quite an industry in private tutoring. Needs patience, readiness to read the textbooks and think how to explain the content, and ability to work with teenagers (a skill set that successful parents may have mastered:) My other thought was: how much do they actually need per month? Have they done a budget? I'll be retiring sometime next year and my occupational pension isn't huge. I'll need to make around 7 to 8 thousand pounds on top of it. I have some plans to generate income around that figure while also having some time.

paulojreis 11y ago
My father actually started his career as a math teacher, but he could also (obviously) teach chemistry. But private tutoring here is hell. Teachers are probably the most unemployed skilled professionals in Portugal. As you can imagine, one of the results (besides huge emigration) is a huge supply of private tutors and tutoring centres. About your other question, they (both my parents) probably could live off € 700,00 per month. It doesn't sound like much, but with the wages here it's very hard to put aside enough money to keep you going for years without a job (even with the low-ish cost of life here) Maybe I should give him a Breaking Bad box set :)
- keithpeter 11y ago
  I suspected the situation you describe might be the case based on what we read here about Europe in the UK. OK: my only other thought is perhaps a bit odd: are there other manufacturing/ science based companies that are closing down/disintegrating? If so some part time work staying with them until they close and managing all the health and safety, asset disposal and equipment sales might be viable. I know a chap who did that in and around the Black Country (Midlands industrial belt near Birmingham and Wolverhampton) in the UK in the 80s when all the foundries were closing down and being sold to Bihar in India. I have no direct experience of that myself.