4 ms·

> The future of Node is in Microsoft's fork People should read "Embrace, extend and extinguish": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish h

by frik 11y ago

> The future of Node is in Microsoft's fork People should read "Embrace, extend and extinguish": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish It happend with Java. Microsoft created their own slightly improved Visual J++ and then Visual J#, and after Sun sued them and MS had to remove their proprietary MSJava from WindowsXP, they forked it with C# 1.0). It happens with JavaScript. They tried to kill Netscape (Browser Wars) with their powerful but slightly incompatible JScript. Remember the IE 6 problems, it's the result. The XHR/AJAX came out of these era too. It almost happend again with JavaScript. First they tried it with JavaScript 4 that never got mainstream (tried to added classes and XML syntax). Thanks god JavaScript 5 came along as lean barely changed succesor. It happens again with JavaScript / ES6/7 and TypeScript. They lobbied to add "class" syntax and at the same time create an competiting language on top of ES6 (optionsl typing, like HACK does for PHP). It happens with Node. The plan to release (we heard that often from MS, it my take a while...) their JavaScript engine and forked Node. Please wake up, and learn from the past history of Microsoft. They are not saints and judge them by their past actions and also their recent Windows 10 forced phone home and forced update disasters, the expensive license changes, etc. I am certainly happy as long as the official Node will continue to run on V8 on all platforms.

Renaud 11y ago
Microsoft has done many shady things in its many years of existence. It's a big company with many tentacles and there have been plenty of dick moves, shoddy deals and intimidation. However, qualifying every interest that MS has in tools or languages with the 3E scare is like crying wolf: people will simply stop listening to you and take you seriously. History should not be ignored but people and companies change, especially if they want to stay relevant. Last I heard, Java was still pretty popular on every platform and the scandalous birth of .Net has been a boon to everyone interested in programming for Windows. So much so that almost every aspect of .Net is getting open sourced and its cross-platform story is really shaping up to something decent. Browser wars were in the 90s... how far back do we have to hate? Netscape didn't deserve to down that way, but don't forget that the Netscape Navigator was not free. MS forced it free and made Netscape disappear in the process. Good thing or bad thing? We can speculate on what could-have been but no-one is paying for their browser today and yet there are at least 5 or 6 good ones to choose from. We can also argue browsers may still be closed source today if Netscape had been profitable and if Netscape (the company) still had its way with the various standards that underpin the web. MS was punished for their strong-arm tactics. Not punished in a particularly effective way, but it still cost them quite a bit and tarnished their reputation even further. Javascript is a standard and as such all those people creating the standard represent their own interests. It happens on every single standard in the world and it's certainly not limited to those of our industry. I don't like it, it's not always done in the interest of those implementing those standards, but I don't think singling-out MS is entirely fair, especially considering that they do have the right to participate since they still provide some of the most used browsers (even if it's by default). TypeScript is good. It changes nothing to JavaScript, it's open source and there are plenty of people who use it to great advantage. I really don't understand what MS is supposed to do here? Nothing? TypeScript is so good the Angular guys at Google have switched to it. Why? Because you can build lots of interesting tooling around it and have a whole classes of issues statically checked, something plain old JS doesn't really provide. Lots of people have forked Node. The Node people have forked Node. It's Open Source, that's the nature of the game. It's good, Node will improve and if what MS does is rubbish then no-one will use it because no-one is forced to. There is no reason for MS to invest in these technologies to see them fail (the extinguish part of 3E). MS is heavily invested in them and need them to work well on their platform and services because programmers of today use Open Source by default and expect a good experience. There has been a huge shift in mentality at MS over the years. Open Source won, we should be happy that the majority of the web is built on it, even MS is aware of that. It's not the nineties any more. Doesn't say we shouldn't be vigilant, but but not every decision out of MS is to be viewed with paranoid suspicions, there are lots of very great and very respectable folks who work there and take pride in what they do, we should give them a little credit.
- frik 11y ago
  What about the 3 words is so hard to crasp? Embrace (JavaScript/Node CHECK), extend (TypeScript, ES6 CHECK) and extinguish (JavaScript5 CHECK, V8 based Node IN-PROGRESS, ES6 TODO)
bitmapbrother 11y ago
>It happend with Java And spectacularly backfired with Java. Java is at an all time high and ranks #1 in the TIOBE index at 20.97 (up 6% from 2014). C#, on the other hand, is at 4% - which is probably why they decided to open source it before it dropped even further. Even Python has surpassed C#. Moral of the story is that the days of Microsoft extinguishing anything are over.
- frik 11y ago
  > spectacularly backfired ?? First TIOBE index cannot be taken seriously. Second a hypothetical forth place isn't that bad, right? MS managed to fragment the community. And they actively try to fragment the JavaScript community with ES6 and TypeScript. And with their Visual Studio Code (based on Electron/Atom editor). > Microsoft extinguishing anything are over Sure with $100+ billion in cash it's over. Microsoft was far less evil company between 2005 and 2011 than before or after that timeframe. Sorry for waking you up from your dream.
  - bitmapbrother 11y ago
    I think TIOBE is a good indication and so are the number of GitHub projects that exist and are being created with these languages. Also, I keep hearing this talk about a new Microsoft. Where's their support for the #1 language in the world in their IDE? As for Microsoft's cash reserves, I heard it was close to 90 Billion with over 90% of that overseas. Google, on the other hand, has about 64 Billion and only 60% overseas.
    - skeletonjelly 11y ago
      > the number of GitHub projects that exist and are being created with these languages Definitely not indicative of all the myriad of business applications that are created and not release on github

by frik 11y ago

Renaud 11y ago

Microsoft has done many shady things in its many years of existence. It's a big company with many tentacles and there have been plenty of dick moves, shoddy deals and intimidation. However, qualifying every interest that MS has in tools or languages with the 3E scare is like crying wolf: people will simply stop listening to you and take you seriously. History should not be ignored but people and companies change, especially if they want to stay relevant. Last I heard, Java was still pretty popular on every platform and the scandalous birth of .Net has been a boon to everyone interested in programming for Windows. So much so that almost every aspect of .Net is getting open sourced and its cross-platform story is really shaping up to something decent. Browser wars were in the 90s... how far back do we have to hate? Netscape didn't deserve to down that way, but don't forget that the Netscape Navigator was not free. MS forced it free and made Netscape disappear in the process. Good thing or bad thing? We can speculate on what could-have been but no-one is paying for their browser today and yet there are at least 5 or 6 good ones to choose from. We can also argue browsers may still be closed source today if Netscape had been profitable and if Netscape (the company) still had its way with the various standards that underpin the web. MS was punished for their strong-arm tactics. Not punished in a particularly effective way, but it still cost them quite a bit and tarnished their reputation even further. Javascript is a standard and as such all those people creating the standard represent their own interests. It happens on every single standard in the world and it's certainly not limited to those of our industry. I don't like it, it's not always done in the interest of those implementing those standards, but I don't think singling-out MS is entirely fair, especially considering that they do have the right to participate since they still provide some of the most used browsers (even if it's by default). TypeScript is good. It changes nothing to JavaScript, it's open source and there are plenty of people who use it to great advantage. I really don't understand what MS is supposed to do here? Nothing? TypeScript is so good the Angular guys at Google have switched to it. Why? Because you can build lots of interesting tooling around it and have a whole classes of issues statically checked, something plain old JS doesn't really provide. Lots of people have forked Node. The Node people have forked Node. It's Open Source, that's the nature of the game. It's good, Node will improve and if what MS does is rubbish then no-one will use it because no-one is forced to. There is no reason for MS to invest in these technologies to see them fail (the extinguish part of 3E). MS is heavily invested in them and need them to work well on their platform and services because programmers of today use Open Source by default and expect a good experience. There has been a huge shift in mentality at MS over the years. Open Source won, we should be happy that the majority of the web is built on it, even MS is aware of that. It's not the nineties any more. Doesn't say we shouldn't be vigilant, but but not every decision out of MS is to be viewed with paranoid suspicions, there are lots of very great and very respectable folks who work there and take pride in what they do, we should give them a little credit.

frik 11y ago
What about the 3 words is so hard to crasp? Embrace (JavaScript/Node CHECK), extend (TypeScript, ES6 CHECK) and extinguish (JavaScript5 CHECK, V8 based Node IN-PROGRESS, ES6 TODO)

bitmapbrother 11y ago

>It happend with Java And spectacularly backfired with Java. Java is at an all time high and ranks #1 in the TIOBE index at 20.97 (up 6% from 2014). C#, on the other hand, is at 4% - which is probably why they decided to open source it before it dropped even further. Even Python has surpassed C#. Moral of the story is that the days of Microsoft extinguishing anything are over.

frik 11y ago
> spectacularly backfired ?? First TIOBE index cannot be taken seriously. Second a hypothetical forth place isn't that bad, right? MS managed to fragment the community. And they actively try to fragment the JavaScript community with ES6 and TypeScript. And with their Visual Studio Code (based on Electron/Atom editor). > Microsoft extinguishing anything are over Sure with $100+ billion in cash it's over. Microsoft was far less evil company between 2005 and 2011 than before or after that timeframe. Sorry for waking you up from your dream.
- bitmapbrother 11y ago
  I think TIOBE is a good indication and so are the number of GitHub projects that exist and are being created with these languages. Also, I keep hearing this talk about a new Microsoft. Where's their support for the #1 language in the world in their IDE? As for Microsoft's cash reserves, I heard it was close to 90 Billion with over 90% of that overseas. Google, on the other hand, has about 64 Billion and only 60% overseas.
  - skeletonjelly 11y ago
    > the number of GitHub projects that exist and are being created with these languages Definitely not indicative of all the myriad of business applications that are created and not release on github