6 ms·

Can someone define "modern" in this context for me?

DonHopkins 11y ago
Cargo cult nomenclature is a symptom of cargo cult architecture. They're already starting to run out of 6 letter words to name web frameworks with the format of "_rails". What's next: "Frails"? "Brails"? "Derails"? "Fails"? Or just "Ails"?
chvid 11y ago
I would call this a traditional MVC web framework written in JavaScript.
p0larboy 11y ago
Modern Javascript, perhaps? As in ES6
harunurhan 11y ago
I think because it runs on Node 4, written in ES6, uses Koa by default instead of Express
DonHopkins 11y ago
MVC is old and obsolete cargo cult technology. The phrase "Modern MVC Web Framework" is lipstick on a geriatric pig, like "Modern Waterfall Software Development Paradigm". Unless by modern they mean modern as in modernism, that began in the 1870s as a self-consciousness and irony concerning literary and social traditions. [1] In the same sense that the art style and technology in Fallout 4 is "modern". [2] MVC frameworks might be better described as "Modern Googie GUI Architecture". [3] "Things seem to hang on in computing just because they work a little bit." -Alan Kay on MVC [4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism [2] http://img.duniaku.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Fallout-4-1.jpg http://img.duniaku.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Fallout-4-... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googie_architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googie_architecture [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7755759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7755759
- dimgl 11y ago
  If it's obsolete, what should replace it?
  - jessaustin 11y ago
    Here's one idea: http://cycle.js.org/model-view-intent.html http://cycle.js.org/model-view-intent.html
    - DonHopkins 11y ago
      It's not just about replacing the controller, which nobody understands or agrees on [1] -- it's about getting away from the idea that you can oversimplify user interface architecture down to a holy trinity of just three elemental concepts. You could just as well ask "If Earth, Wind and Fire [2] are obsolete, what replaces them?" There's more to modern chemistry than Earth, Wind and Electricity. [1] http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatsaControllerAnyway http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatsaControllerAnyway [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element
      - jessaustin 11y ago
        With Cycle MVI can be just a guide for getting started. (More pejoratively, a crutch.) I regularly find the intent()-model() interface getting too verbose and boilerplatey so I just munge the two pure functions together into one. So far it's made sense to keep view() separate, however.
- platz 11y ago
  When I hear the Facebook-React people talk about "MVC", it seems like their experience of the term is from Native-UI frameworks, especially those with active Views that call themselves "MVC". Then we have "Javascript MVC" frameworks like Angular, which have "bindings" and this makes them MVC. Then I think about the Server-side web programmers (i.e. Rails) which are also "MVC" that render the whole response for a request.. the view is often just a template. This is also "MVC". Basically the term has completely lost it's meaning at this point.. It's simply a pejorative term now, because we don't take the time to name/reveal the particular things we don't like about certain frameworks, we just call them MVC.

Cargo cult nomenclature is a symptom of cargo cult architecture. They're already starting to run out of 6 letter words to name web frameworks with the format of "_rails". What's next: "Frails"? "Brails"? "Derails"? "Fails"? Or just "Ails"?

chvid 11y ago

I would call this a traditional MVC web framework written in JavaScript.

p0larboy 11y ago

Modern Javascript, perhaps? As in ES6

harunurhan 11y ago

I think because it runs on Node 4, written in ES6, uses Koa by default instead of Express

DonHopkins 11y ago

MVC is old and obsolete cargo cult technology. The phrase "Modern MVC Web Framework" is lipstick on a geriatric pig, like "Modern Waterfall Software Development Paradigm". Unless by modern they mean modern as in modernism, that began in the 1870s as a self-consciousness and irony concerning literary and social traditions. [1] In the same sense that the art style and technology in Fallout 4 is "modern". [2] MVC frameworks might be better described as "Modern Googie GUI Architecture". [3] "Things seem to hang on in computing just because they work a little bit." -Alan Kay on MVC [4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism [2] http://img.duniaku.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Fallout-4-1.jpg http://img.duniaku.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Fallout-4-... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googie_architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googie_architecture [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7755759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7755759

dimgl 11y ago
If it's obsolete, what should replace it?
- jessaustin 11y ago
  Here's one idea: http://cycle.js.org/model-view-intent.html http://cycle.js.org/model-view-intent.html
  - DonHopkins 11y ago
    It's not just about replacing the controller, which nobody understands or agrees on [1] -- it's about getting away from the idea that you can oversimplify user interface architecture down to a holy trinity of just three elemental concepts. You could just as well ask "If Earth, Wind and Fire [2] are obsolete, what replaces them?" There's more to modern chemistry than Earth, Wind and Electricity. [1] http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatsaControllerAnyway http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatsaControllerAnyway [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element
    - jessaustin 11y ago
      With Cycle MVI can be just a guide for getting started. (More pejoratively, a crutch.) I regularly find the intent()-model() interface getting too verbose and boilerplatey so I just munge the two pure functions together into one. So far it's made sense to keep view() separate, however.
platz 11y ago
When I hear the Facebook-React people talk about "MVC", it seems like their experience of the term is from Native-UI frameworks, especially those with active Views that call themselves "MVC". Then we have "Javascript MVC" frameworks like Angular, which have "bindings" and this makes them MVC. Then I think about the Server-side web programmers (i.e. Rails) which are also "MVC" that render the whole response for a request.. the view is often just a template. This is also "MVC". Basically the term has completely lost it's meaning at this point.. It's simply a pejorative term now, because we don't take the time to name/reveal the particular things we don't like about certain frameworks, we just call them MVC.