3 ms·

Putin dissolves Roscosmos, will restructure it as a state-run corporation

30 points by curtis 11y ago

mikeyouse 11y ago
There's been a sad habit of the Russian state nationalizing industries, reforming them as state-run corps, handing the reins to one of Putin's friends and then looting them of anything valuable. This doesn't bode well for the Russian space program. To add a bit more value to my shorter post, here is a partial list of the extreme corruption in industries that Putin's government has gifted to friends of the President; Russian Railways: http://www.reuters.com/article/russia-capitalism-railways-special-repor-idUSL3N0O93GR20140523 http://www.reuters.com/article/russia-capitalism-railways-sp... Gunvor Energy Trading: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8175406/WikiLeaks-Putins-secret-billions.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8175406/... Bank Rossiya: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/28/world/europe/it-pays-to-be-putins-friend-.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/28/world/europe/it-pays-to-be... Gazprom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazprom#Establishment_of_government_control_.282005_-_2006.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazprom#Establishment_of_gover... Etc. etc. As a final comparison.. The 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver cost ~$1.7B Canadian.. The Sochi Olympics cost upwards of $51B. The scale of graft is staggering.
- 9mit3t2m9h9a 11y ago
  Well, the space industry in Russia was never privatised in the first place. And I am afraid that moving parts of Khrunichev Institute out of Moscow (for example — it happens independently of top-level restructuring) will deal more damage than formal rearrangement of top-level control.
  - mikeyouse 11y ago
    Roscosmos, no, but Energomash was allegedly partially privately owned and operated until the consolidation in 2013; http://spacenews.com/russia-moves-forward-with-industry-consolidation/ http://spacenews.com/russia-moves-forward-with-industry-cons... I'm with you on the rest though, more than just changing the board members, dismantling the education pipeline or installing lackeys in the production facilities will do much more long term harm.
- skylan_q 11y ago
  then looting them of anything valuable Those were the oligarchs who came to power in the 90's. He turned against them shortly after he became president and is currently consolidating power for himself in a very, very large country that's had petty competing centers of power since the collapse of the USSR.
  - mikeyouse 11y ago
    There was obviously the big wave of privatization and corruption after the USSR fell, but lately it's been re-nationalization and pseudo state corps financed by state banks.. The companies take large loans from the government banks, steal most of the money through contracts with various shell corps and then get bailed out. A wholly different but very serious problem.
  - golergka 11y ago
    > Those were the oligarchs who came to power in the 90's. This is a simplification that putin's propaganda machine loves so much. Today's Russia isn't much different from the 90s, except the portrayal in tv and the fact that instead of looting soviet relics, raiders destroy succesfull companies that have been built in the last 20 years.
  - Grue3 11y ago
    Oligarchs from the 90s are nothing compared to oligarchs we have right now. Russia has never been more corrupt and dysfunctional.
peter303 11y ago
US private spaceflight companies buy lots of Russian engines. I dont know if it is through Roscosmos.
- monocasa 11y ago
  If you're talking about RD-180s, they're from NPO Enrgomash. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPO_Energomash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPO_Energomash
- skylan_q 11y ago
  I'm told by Americans that Putin is looting everything meanwhile Americans have to buy parts from Russians to get to space.
  - mikeyouse 11y ago
    Both can be true..
- rebootthesystem 11y ago
  I don't know if "lots" is the right word, but ULA pretty much depends on buying RD-180's. If it wasn't for Congress lifting the restrictions they'd be out of the game. If you ask me, if you are a rocket company and don't make your own engines you are not a rocket company. External forces can instantly turn you into an expensive fuel and liquid oxygen tank manufacturing company that can't launch a paperclip into orbit. The smartest thing SpaceX has done, perhaps by accident or genius, was to design and manufacture their own engines. Well, their own everything in their case. ULA charges USD $400 million for a launch and SpaceX under $200 million (I think it's $160). One is a perfect example of what happens when private enterprise and capitalism go to work and the other is representative of anything government touches, funds or insists on keeping alive despite reality. The same mechanism that gives you billion dollar websites and a myriad of programs that do nothing but burn money a N times what a more effective private effort could accomplish. You can launch three SpaceX rockets for the price of one ULA. And now that they are landing them and will start to re-use them the equation might approach a ridiculous case of perhaps 10 launches for every 1 from ULA. If you want to really understand where things are, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HADsoywAEuU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HADsoywAEuU You really have to grok this before understanding the entire picture. What Russia does doesn't matter any more. Nobody is going to be able to compete with what Musk and his team have created. I am not sure most realize how much of a game-changer this will be.
avmich 11y ago
> After all, the rise of ambitious US competitors like SpaceX could put a damper on Russia's surprisingly lucrative spaceflight business. Could put a damper, yes. But the reasons are mostly Russia own internal problems, not stiff external competition. SpaceX does superb technical work for each dollar spent, but they still have a road to travel to reach technical achievements of even Soviet Union 1980-s level. And it's hard to compete with government-subsidized, R&D-already-recouped and massively manufactured tech. Not that SpaceX doesn't go there. In fact, they demonstrate very good technical and economical results. It's just too different - USSR Academy of Sciences focused work of decades on, say, material science and Energomash-level of first stage engine perfection. SpaceX has a huge boost in reuseability area and much more modern technologies - they just have a lot to catch up to. Yet at the same time Russia - could - enjoy both the wealth of institutionalized rocketry knowledge and quite inexpensive workforce - in exactly those technical areas which are required for space which could be hard to beat - even to Elon Musk. It's really sad state of affairs in Russia - and unfortunately space isn't the only one area suffering.

30 points by curtis 11y ago

There's been a sad habit of the Russian state nationalizing industries, reforming them as state-run corps, handing the reins to one of Putin's friends and then looting them of anything valuable. This doesn't bode well for the Russian space program. To add a bit more value to my shorter post, here is a partial list of the extreme corruption in industries that Putin's government has gifted to friends of the President; Russian Railways: http://www.reuters.com/article/russia-capitalism-railways-special-repor-idUSL3N0O93GR20140523 http://www.reuters.com/article/russia-capitalism-railways-sp... Gunvor Energy Trading: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8175406/WikiLeaks-Putins-secret-billions.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8175406/... Bank Rossiya: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/28/world/europe/it-pays-to-be-putins-friend-.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/28/world/europe/it-pays-to-be... Gazprom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazprom#Establishment_of_government_control_.282005_-_2006.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazprom#Establishment_of_gover... Etc. etc. As a final comparison.. The 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver cost ~$1.7B Canadian.. The Sochi Olympics cost upwards of $51B. The scale of graft is staggering.

9mit3t2m9h9a 11y ago
Well, the space industry in Russia was never privatised in the first place. And I am afraid that moving parts of Khrunichev Institute out of Moscow (for example — it happens independently of top-level restructuring) will deal more damage than formal rearrangement of top-level control.
- mikeyouse 11y ago
  Roscosmos, no, but Energomash was allegedly partially privately owned and operated until the consolidation in 2013; http://spacenews.com/russia-moves-forward-with-industry-consolidation/ http://spacenews.com/russia-moves-forward-with-industry-cons... I'm with you on the rest though, more than just changing the board members, dismantling the education pipeline or installing lackeys in the production facilities will do much more long term harm.
skylan_q 11y ago
then looting them of anything valuable Those were the oligarchs who came to power in the 90's. He turned against them shortly after he became president and is currently consolidating power for himself in a very, very large country that's had petty competing centers of power since the collapse of the USSR.
- mikeyouse 11y ago
  There was obviously the big wave of privatization and corruption after the USSR fell, but lately it's been re-nationalization and pseudo state corps financed by state banks.. The companies take large loans from the government banks, steal most of the money through contracts with various shell corps and then get bailed out. A wholly different but very serious problem.
- golergka 11y ago
  > Those were the oligarchs who came to power in the 90's. This is a simplification that putin's propaganda machine loves so much. Today's Russia isn't much different from the 90s, except the portrayal in tv and the fact that instead of looting soviet relics, raiders destroy succesfull companies that have been built in the last 20 years.
- Grue3 11y ago
  Oligarchs from the 90s are nothing compared to oligarchs we have right now. Russia has never been more corrupt and dysfunctional.

peter303 11y ago

US private spaceflight companies buy lots of Russian engines. I dont know if it is through Roscosmos.

monocasa 11y ago
If you're talking about RD-180s, they're from NPO Enrgomash. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPO_Energomash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPO_Energomash
skylan_q 11y ago
I'm told by Americans that Putin is looting everything meanwhile Americans have to buy parts from Russians to get to space.
- mikeyouse 11y ago
  Both can be true..
rebootthesystem 11y ago
I don't know if "lots" is the right word, but ULA pretty much depends on buying RD-180's. If it wasn't for Congress lifting the restrictions they'd be out of the game. If you ask me, if you are a rocket company and don't make your own engines you are not a rocket company. External forces can instantly turn you into an expensive fuel and liquid oxygen tank manufacturing company that can't launch a paperclip into orbit. The smartest thing SpaceX has done, perhaps by accident or genius, was to design and manufacture their own engines. Well, their own everything in their case. ULA charges USD $400 million for a launch and SpaceX under $200 million (I think it's $160). One is a perfect example of what happens when private enterprise and capitalism go to work and the other is representative of anything government touches, funds or insists on keeping alive despite reality. The same mechanism that gives you billion dollar websites and a myriad of programs that do nothing but burn money a N times what a more effective private effort could accomplish. You can launch three SpaceX rockets for the price of one ULA. And now that they are landing them and will start to re-use them the equation might approach a ridiculous case of perhaps 10 launches for every 1 from ULA. If you want to really understand where things are, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HADsoywAEuU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HADsoywAEuU You really have to grok this before understanding the entire picture. What Russia does doesn't matter any more. Nobody is going to be able to compete with what Musk and his team have created. I am not sure most realize how much of a game-changer this will be.

avmich 11y ago

> After all, the rise of ambitious US competitors like SpaceX could put a damper on Russia's surprisingly lucrative spaceflight business. Could put a damper, yes. But the reasons are mostly Russia own internal problems, not stiff external competition. SpaceX does superb technical work for each dollar spent, but they still have a road to travel to reach technical achievements of even Soviet Union 1980-s level. And it's hard to compete with government-subsidized, R&D-already-recouped and massively manufactured tech. Not that SpaceX doesn't go there. In fact, they demonstrate very good technical and economical results. It's just too different - USSR Academy of Sciences focused work of decades on, say, material science and Energomash-level of first stage engine perfection. SpaceX has a huge boost in reuseability area and much more modern technologies - they just have a lot to catch up to. Yet at the same time Russia - could - enjoy both the wealth of institutionalized rocketry knowledge and quite inexpensive workforce - in exactly those technical areas which are required for space which could be hard to beat - even to Elon Musk. It's really sad state of affairs in Russia - and unfortunately space isn't the only one area suffering.