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Because it's (possibly) a suicide we don't honor his death? Will we also prevent him from being buried in the church grounds? We don't want the holy place besmi

by jordanb 11y ago

Because it's (possibly) a suicide we don't honor his death? Will we also prevent him from being buried in the church grounds? We don't want the holy place besmirched by a mortal sin do we? I personally think part of it is political. I don't think HN will display a black banner when Stallman dies, for instance.

Alupis 11y ago
> Because it's (possibly) a suicide we don't honor his death? No, we do honor his death... but you must acknowledge things are a bit different when someone takes their own life vs. due to causes outside their control. Others have pointed to Steve Jobs' memorial on HN. Steve Jobs died of more-or-less natural causes after a great career where he never stopped doing what he did (even in his deathbed he was up to speed on what Apple was doing). Ian took his own life as some sort of retaliation against perceived police brutality in the middle of an alcohol/drug fueled rage.
- id 11y ago
  If anything, suicide makes it more tragic and sad. And Steve Jobs was simply known to a lot more people - his death was all over the news for weeks. >Ian took his own life as some sort of retaliation against perceived police brutality in the middle of an alcohol/drug fueled rage. We don't know any of this yet. Speculate all you want but don't state it as if it were a fact.
  - xyzzy4 11y ago
    >If anything, suicide makes it more tragic and sad. I disagree. For example if someone takes all their money and lights it on fire, you shouldn't feel bad for them that they just lost their money.
- ars 11y ago
  If anything I feel it's exactly the opposite. Ian was having a mental breakdown of some sort when he apparently committed suicide, and was not in his right mind. Steve on the other hand was in full control of his facilities when he willfully refused treatment that might have saved, or at least extended his life. When he finally realized his mistake it was too late.
- nyan4 11y ago
  You are essentially claiming that mental illness is less respectable than physical illness. (BTW, much has been said about Jobs refusing standard cancer treatment and choosing a potentially less effective one.)
  - Alupis 11y ago
    > BTW, much has been said about Jobs refusing standard cancer treatment and choosing a potentially less effective one Steve Jobs very well may be alive today had he chosen to undergo typical cancer treatments since his was discovered moderately early. He ate carrots and drank herbal tea, at protest of doctors and medical professionals, right up until even he realized his course of action was foolish. He panicked and tried to undergo dramatic procedures, but it was too late. > You are essentially claiming that mental illness is less respectable than physical illness. Not at all. But this case with Ian doesn't appear to have been caused by mental illness, rather it appears to have been the result of heavy binge drinking ("black out drunk") (and possibly drugs, due to his erratic and abnormal behavior and statements), and people do very stupid things in that state (including commit suicide even though their sober selves wouldn't permit it). This isn't an Aaron Swartz case where Ian was pushed to the very edge over a period of time, and systematically had his life and everything to look forward to ripped away by a system built purely to destroy him. Ian's death was the direct result of his actions over the period of a weekend, heavily influenced by alcohol (and possibly drugs). That's a different case entirely. It's a little more difficult to feel the same sort of pain for someone who was upset at the consequences from their own actions (try to break into someone's home, police are going to arrest/ticket you... do it a second time on the same night, and you definitely will be arrested). It's apparent, in Ian's drunken stupor, he fundamentally believed he did nothing wrong and everyone was out to "get him". This is indicative of a drunk and/or someone on drugs (inability to see cause and effect, and rationalize about one's own actions).
    - patrickaljord 11y ago
      > It's apparent, in Ian's drunken stupor, he fundamentally believed he did nothing wrong and everyone was out to "get him". This is indicative of a drunk and/or someone on drugs (inability to see cause and effect, and rationalize about one's own actions). Seems a little harsh given the few details we have to blame it all on Ian being drunk. Most drunk people don't kill themselves, it's obvious something else happened we don't know about. All I know is that for now, I trust Ian more than I do cops specially after events such as these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Andy_Lopez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Andy_Lopez
- digler999 11y ago
  > things are a bit different when someone takes their own life This is a golden example of stigmatizing mental illness. If he had cancer, it would have been a "real" tragedy, but because he (likely) had some kind of mental illness/breakdown that led to the same result, it's "different". You know, personally I think what Steve Jobs did - aside from gaming the system to get first dibs on his new liver - was tantamount to murder. He got a new liver, and then didn't follow standard treatment for his cancer, resulting in his own death. The liver he (effectively) stole could have gone to someone else who could still be alive today. Doesn't that make you sick ? It's tantamount to killing an innocent life. Edit: The more I think about it, Steve did take his own life. I'm sure at some point, his doctors told him "if you dont do this [follow treatment regimen], you'll die". So he committed suicide too.
gohrt 11y ago
You don't honor a death. You honor a life, at the moment of death, because death is moment when you realize you didn't pay enough attention during their life.

by jordanb 11y ago

Alupis 11y ago

> Because it's (possibly) a suicide we don't honor his death? No, we do honor his death... but you must acknowledge things are a bit different when someone takes their own life vs. due to causes outside their control. Others have pointed to Steve Jobs' memorial on HN. Steve Jobs died of more-or-less natural causes after a great career where he never stopped doing what he did (even in his deathbed he was up to speed on what Apple was doing). Ian took his own life as some sort of retaliation against perceived police brutality in the middle of an alcohol/drug fueled rage.

id 11y ago
If anything, suicide makes it more tragic and sad. And Steve Jobs was simply known to a lot more people - his death was all over the news for weeks. >Ian took his own life as some sort of retaliation against perceived police brutality in the middle of an alcohol/drug fueled rage. We don't know any of this yet. Speculate all you want but don't state it as if it were a fact.
- xyzzy4 11y ago
  >If anything, suicide makes it more tragic and sad. I disagree. For example if someone takes all their money and lights it on fire, you shouldn't feel bad for them that they just lost their money.
ars 11y ago
If anything I feel it's exactly the opposite. Ian was having a mental breakdown of some sort when he apparently committed suicide, and was not in his right mind. Steve on the other hand was in full control of his facilities when he willfully refused treatment that might have saved, or at least extended his life. When he finally realized his mistake it was too late.
nyan4 11y ago
You are essentially claiming that mental illness is less respectable than physical illness. (BTW, much has been said about Jobs refusing standard cancer treatment and choosing a potentially less effective one.)
- Alupis 11y ago
  > BTW, much has been said about Jobs refusing standard cancer treatment and choosing a potentially less effective one Steve Jobs very well may be alive today had he chosen to undergo typical cancer treatments since his was discovered moderately early. He ate carrots and drank herbal tea, at protest of doctors and medical professionals, right up until even he realized his course of action was foolish. He panicked and tried to undergo dramatic procedures, but it was too late. > You are essentially claiming that mental illness is less respectable than physical illness. Not at all. But this case with Ian doesn't appear to have been caused by mental illness, rather it appears to have been the result of heavy binge drinking ("black out drunk") (and possibly drugs, due to his erratic and abnormal behavior and statements), and people do very stupid things in that state (including commit suicide even though their sober selves wouldn't permit it). This isn't an Aaron Swartz case where Ian was pushed to the very edge over a period of time, and systematically had his life and everything to look forward to ripped away by a system built purely to destroy him. Ian's death was the direct result of his actions over the period of a weekend, heavily influenced by alcohol (and possibly drugs). That's a different case entirely. It's a little more difficult to feel the same sort of pain for someone who was upset at the consequences from their own actions (try to break into someone's home, police are going to arrest/ticket you... do it a second time on the same night, and you definitely will be arrested). It's apparent, in Ian's drunken stupor, he fundamentally believed he did nothing wrong and everyone was out to "get him". This is indicative of a drunk and/or someone on drugs (inability to see cause and effect, and rationalize about one's own actions).
  - patrickaljord 11y ago
    > It's apparent, in Ian's drunken stupor, he fundamentally believed he did nothing wrong and everyone was out to "get him". This is indicative of a drunk and/or someone on drugs (inability to see cause and effect, and rationalize about one's own actions). Seems a little harsh given the few details we have to blame it all on Ian being drunk. Most drunk people don't kill themselves, it's obvious something else happened we don't know about. All I know is that for now, I trust Ian more than I do cops specially after events such as these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Andy_Lopez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Andy_Lopez
digler999 11y ago
> things are a bit different when someone takes their own life This is a golden example of stigmatizing mental illness. If he had cancer, it would have been a "real" tragedy, but because he (likely) had some kind of mental illness/breakdown that led to the same result, it's "different". You know, personally I think what Steve Jobs did - aside from gaming the system to get first dibs on his new liver - was tantamount to murder. He got a new liver, and then didn't follow standard treatment for his cancer, resulting in his own death. The liver he (effectively) stole could have gone to someone else who could still be alive today. Doesn't that make you sick ? It's tantamount to killing an innocent life. Edit: The more I think about it, Steve did take his own life. I'm sure at some point, his doctors told him "if you dont do this [follow treatment regimen], you'll die". So he committed suicide too.

gohrt 11y ago

You don't honor a death. You honor a life, at the moment of death, because death is moment when you realize you didn't pay enough attention during their life.