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Cameron isn't actually Scottish, having a distant ancestor doesn't make you so. Tony Blair was not really Scottish either - although at least he was of a Scotti
by JetSetWilly 11y ago
Cameron isn't actually Scottish, having a distant ancestor doesn't make you so. Tony Blair was not really Scottish either - although at least he was of a Scottish background. He did go to a Scottish school, and was born there, but crucially he didn't self-identify as Scottish and certainly didn't have a Scottish accent - he was mostly raised in Durham and that was how he self-identified.
I've found that people who promote Blair and even Cameron as Scottish without mentioning that actually they think themselves English tend to be nursing a grievance against Scotland for whatever reason.
Otherwise we have Brown who was unequivocally Scottish and was often attacked on that basis during his premiership ("One-eyed Scottish Idiot" etc).
Otherwise in the 20th Century we have James Ramsay MacDonald (1930s for 6 years), Lord Douglas-Home (a year and a half in the 1960s), Henry Campbell-Bannerman (2.5 years), and Arthur James Balfour (3.5 years).
So 13 or 14 years of the 20th century, Britain suffered under Scottish prime ministers, only slightly above what we might expect given Scotland's share of the population of the UK - this could be explained by Scotland then-increased share of MPs.
It doesn't seem that Scotland dominates UK politics more than any other nation. However, it is certainly noticed and commented upon or even resented when Scottish people rise to high office, perhaps that's why it may seem so to some.
In the current political climate with the domination of the SNP, it seems like the possibility of Scottish MPs attaining any kind of high office, membership of the cabinet, or part of the governance of the UK has entirely vanished for generations with who-knows-what consequences for the union in the future.
- peteretep 11y agoSo what you're saying is that No True Scotsman would ever be prime minister of the UK? Got it.
- arethuza 11y agoI think JetSetWilly is suggesting that it is even less likely that a Scot will become PM any time in next couple of decades than it was before. Which seems reasonable. Edit: The self destruction of Labour in Scotland has pretty much guaranteed this.
- jacquesm 11y agoThis thread should be linked from the Wikipedia page as a prime example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.
- JetSetWilly 11y agoThe "No True Scotsman" fallacy doesn't mean that you get to call anybody you want Scottish and get away with it: "Actually, Arnold Schwarzenegger isn't Scottish" - "HA! No True Scotsman!" I'm sure you can see the problem with using this "fallacy" to claim that anybody is Scottish even if they don't self-identify as Scottish?
- jacquesm 11y agoI think you're taking my comment in a much too serious fashion.
- lawpoop 11y agoDidn't come off as a joke to me. But now that I understand what you mean, it is kind of funny.
- peteretep 11y ago"Well he may have been born and brought up in Scotland to a Scottish parent ... but he's not a real Scotsman as he doesn't have the same accent as me"
- JetSetWilly 11y agoYou seem to be good at inventing straw men. I never said that. Your position appears to be "they may identify as English, say they are English, and sound English, but because it suits my agenda of suggesting that the UK government is run by pernicious Scots, they are actually Scottish" - which is ridiculous.
- caf 11y agoYou are misapplying the fallacy - it does not imply that there is no distinction between Scots and non-Scots. The fact that Blair and Cameron do not identify as Scottish is sufficient reason to say that they aren't Scottish, and does not invoke the fallacy.
- mc32 11y agoI don't think that's sufficient reason. It's possible in the future one or more self identifies as Scottish. Alternatively, let's say Cecil Rhodes had said, I'm not English, I'm South African, would that have made him South African and not English?
- briane80 11y agoAs we all know Scottishness is passed through the male gene* (Stewart Lee).
- mousetummy 11y agoPoint taken; Blair doesn't self-identify as Scottish but to be fair I've no doubt he would do so if it was to his political advantage, which I think is fair enough - he's in politics. On the other hand, he was, as you admit, born in Scotland, spent many years of his childhood there, including (I may be wrong) the formative secondary school years (ages 13-18), and I don't think it would be crossing the line if some proud Scot were to claim him as one of their own. Your second line vaguely defines a 'people' but given the context, I am assuming you suspect me as one of them, so for the record, I am English-born of a largely Scottish origin family, foolishly proud of my Scottish heritage, and do not nurse any grievance - quite the contrary. Indeed, I voted for both recent 'Scottish' prime ministers. I've never noticed a grievance in others claiming Blair as Scottish but will look out for it. Your last sentence makes a sad but good point.
- JetSetWilly 11y agoI think Blair could claim to be Scottish or English if he wished - but ultimately, he identified as English, says he is English and does so with good reason because after his very early childhood he was raised there (although sent off to board at Fettes). My second point was not aimed at you in particular, apologies if it came off that way, just that it is common for some (perhaps right wing) people to tediously repeat the "Blair is Scottish, Scots have an outsized influence on the UK" mantra without reflecting that actually it isn't as clear-cut as they state and that Scots don't have an "outsized" influence on the UK politically and never have. They have an influence in proportion to their share of the population, over the historical piece - sometimes higher and sometimes lower (as now) but it all comes out in the wash.