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I don't know it by name but this quote reveals it pretty soundly: "We shall approach astronomy as we do geometry, by way of problems, and ignore what is in the

I don't know it by name but this quote reveals it pretty soundly: "We shall approach astronomy as we do geometry, by way of problems, and ignore what is in the sky." (Plato's Republic) This kind of thinking is likely the same sort of thinking that got Kepler off the track trying to force the Pythagorean solids into planetary orbits in his Harmonices Mundi. (maybe call it "Pseudoscientism" a belief that merely scientific-looking commonalities are in fact universalities)

tremon 11y ago
I am unclear how "We shall [..] ignore what is in the sky" translates to a religious ideology. It sounds to me like Plato is arguing against the Greek tradition of trying to explain a natural phenomenon by tying its existence to a god, and arguing for (what we now call) scientific rigour. Can you clarify what you mean with "this kind of thinking"?
- nickbauman 11y ago
  That tradition was not at issue with Plato and his ilk. If you can agree that religion is merely institutionalized ideology, I think by contrast you could look to Aristotle, whose lifespan intersected with Plato's, who took the opposing view: Describing what he has observed about bees, he writes "the facts have not been sufficiently ascertained, then we must trust perception rather than theories." The Greeks formally established the mechanics of inductive reasoning as the formulation of truths from empirical evidence. Plato, for all his gifts, stands firmly in contrast to this. Ideology is fundamentally about turning away from evidence and making the world fit into your polemic.
  - tremon 11y ago
    Actually, their lives intersected, not just their lifespans: Aristotle studied under Plato. If you can agree that religion is merely institutionalized ideology I do not fully agree, as not all ideology would qualify as religion, even if institutionalized. For example, capitalism is not a religion yet it is both an ideology and thoroughly institutionalized. I would agree that religion is a form of institutionalized ideology, but not merely. But I (think I) understand what you're saying. You're saying that because Plato considered fundamental truths unknowable, he made his vision of the world subject to dogma concerning the interplay between the unknowable and our reality. That is certainly true, but I'm unsure how much prescriptive dogma is in Plato's works. Regardless how his theories have been adapted by Christianity later, for as far as I know Plato himself: - never declared empiricism as futile, - did not give his "Shapes" any agency in our reality, - did not create his own narrative of good vs evil. In fact, Plato was quite direct in his approach to morality: people should do "good", because doing good things would bring happiness, and doing bad things would create unhappiness. That is a quite utilitarian approach to civilization, and I would not call this a religious stance. Plato did consider the soul to be immortal, but he also said that learning would begin anew in the next life, so I don't think he subscribed to any form of afterlife judgement.
    - nickbauman 11y ago
      I understand "the cave" in Plato's Republic to be the world as we understand it through the senses. (AKA "the natural world"). Leaving the cave is going into a deeper "gnosis" that, perhaps, resembles pure mathematics, or something else, he doesn't make clear, but it was certainly mystical and thereby ultimately "occult" (or fundamentally "hidden"). Consider this tradition survives even in Newton, who was an avid alchemist, wrt The Philosopher's Stone and obsessed with the numerology of the dimensions of Solomons Temple even as he worked on his Principia.

tremon 11y ago

I am unclear how "We shall [..] ignore what is in the sky" translates to a religious ideology. It sounds to me like Plato is arguing against the Greek tradition of trying to explain a natural phenomenon by tying its existence to a god, and arguing for (what we now call) scientific rigour. Can you clarify what you mean with "this kind of thinking"?

nickbauman 11y ago
That tradition was not at issue with Plato and his ilk. If you can agree that religion is merely institutionalized ideology, I think by contrast you could look to Aristotle, whose lifespan intersected with Plato's, who took the opposing view: Describing what he has observed about bees, he writes "the facts have not been sufficiently ascertained, then we must trust perception rather than theories." The Greeks formally established the mechanics of inductive reasoning as the formulation of truths from empirical evidence. Plato, for all his gifts, stands firmly in contrast to this. Ideology is fundamentally about turning away from evidence and making the world fit into your polemic.
- tremon 11y ago
  Actually, their lives intersected, not just their lifespans: Aristotle studied under Plato. If you can agree that religion is merely institutionalized ideology I do not fully agree, as not all ideology would qualify as religion, even if institutionalized. For example, capitalism is not a religion yet it is both an ideology and thoroughly institutionalized. I would agree that religion is a form of institutionalized ideology, but not merely. But I (think I) understand what you're saying. You're saying that because Plato considered fundamental truths unknowable, he made his vision of the world subject to dogma concerning the interplay between the unknowable and our reality. That is certainly true, but I'm unsure how much prescriptive dogma is in Plato's works. Regardless how his theories have been adapted by Christianity later, for as far as I know Plato himself: - never declared empiricism as futile, - did not give his "Shapes" any agency in our reality, - did not create his own narrative of good vs evil. In fact, Plato was quite direct in his approach to morality: people should do "good", because doing good things would bring happiness, and doing bad things would create unhappiness. That is a quite utilitarian approach to civilization, and I would not call this a religious stance. Plato did consider the soul to be immortal, but he also said that learning would begin anew in the next life, so I don't think he subscribed to any form of afterlife judgement.
  - nickbauman 11y ago
    I understand "the cave" in Plato's Republic to be the world as we understand it through the senses. (AKA "the natural world"). Leaving the cave is going into a deeper "gnosis" that, perhaps, resembles pure mathematics, or something else, he doesn't make clear, but it was certainly mystical and thereby ultimately "occult" (or fundamentally "hidden"). Consider this tradition survives even in Newton, who was an avid alchemist, wrt The Philosopher's Stone and obsessed with the numerology of the dimensions of Solomons Temple even as he worked on his Principia.