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I love Linus point of view here because although he is using words which can have negative connotation to describe his position here ("I am a bastard", "I do no

I love Linus point of view here because although he is using words which can have negative connotation to describe his position here ("I am a bastard", "I do not care", etc), he is actually looking to steer the community towards the greater good.

nickbauman 11y ago
I'm not a kernel developer but his rant strikes me as very platonic, and not in a good way. Platonic in the sense that real knowledge requires turning away from the cosmos and "deeply introspecting" to obtain a "gnosis" of sorts. Plato, for all his contributions, was at heart a religious ideologue closely aligned with the corruption of the Pythagoreans that came before him. Reality was "the cave" and the gnosis was leaving the cave. Full disclosure: I don't use debuggers myself, partly because it isn't practical (I spend most of my time in Go these days, rather unwillingly I might add, and Clojure. Both languages aren't terribly friendly to step-debugging.) but when I need one I really, really need one.
- tremon 11y ago
  > Plato [..] was at heart a religious ideologue Which religion would that be?
  - nickbauman 11y ago
    I don't know it by name but this quote reveals it pretty soundly: "We shall approach astronomy as we do geometry, by way of problems, and ignore what is in the sky." (Plato's Republic) This kind of thinking is likely the same sort of thinking that got Kepler off the track trying to force the Pythagorean solids into planetary orbits in his Harmonices Mundi. (maybe call it "Pseudoscientism" a belief that merely scientific-looking commonalities are in fact universalities)
    - tremon 11y ago
      I am unclear how "We shall [..] ignore what is in the sky" translates to a religious ideology. It sounds to me like Plato is arguing against the Greek tradition of trying to explain a natural phenomenon by tying its existence to a god, and arguing for (what we now call) scientific rigour. Can you clarify what you mean with "this kind of thinking"?
      - nickbauman 11y ago
        That tradition was not at issue with Plato and his ilk. If you can agree that religion is merely institutionalized ideology, I think by contrast you could look to Aristotle, whose lifespan intersected with Plato's, who took the opposing view: Describing what he has observed about bees, he writes "the facts have not been sufficiently ascertained, then we must trust perception rather than theories." The Greeks formally established the mechanics of inductive reasoning as the formulation of truths from empirical evidence. Plato, for all his gifts, stands firmly in contrast to this. Ideology is fundamentally about turning away from evidence and making the world fit into your polemic.
        tremon 11y ago
        Actually, their lives intersected, not just their lifespans: Aristotle studied under Plato. If you can agree that religion is merely institutionalized ideology I do not fully agree, as not all ideology would qualify as religion, even if institutionalized. For example, capitalism is not a religion yet it is both an ideology and thoroughly institutionalized. I would agree that religion is a form of institutionalized ideology, but not merely. But I (think I) understand what you're saying. You're saying that because Plato considered fundamental truths unknowable, he made his vision of the world subject to dogma concerning the interplay between the unknowable and our reality. That is certainly true, but I'm unsure how much prescriptive dogma is in Plato's works. Regardless how his theories have been adapted by Christianity later, for as far as I know Plato himself: - never declared empiricism as futile, - did not give his "Shapes" any agency in our reality, - did not create his own narrative of good vs evil. In fact, Plato was quite direct in his approach to morality: people should do "good", because doing good things would bring happiness, and doing bad things would create unhappiness. That is a quite utilitarian approach to civilization, and I would not call this a religious stance. Plato did consider the soul to be immortal, but he also said that learning would begin anew in the next life, so I don't think he subscribed to any form of afterlife judgement.
CamperBob2 11y ago
As a user, I appreciate his attitude. It's not a coincidence that two of the most successful companies in the tech sector -- Apple and Microsoft -- had outspoken founding figures who weren't afraid to condemn bad ideas and sloppy work in plain language. It's a matter of opinion whether their products have suffered, now that neither company has a Steve or a Bill or a Linus running the show. My opinion is that they have.
- moron4hire 11y ago
  It's not plain language. It's specifically anti-productive language. He's no better than people who are overly officious in their speech, as his diatribes serve just as much to get in the way of his point and muddy understanding as what he believes he's avoiding by cursing at people. If he were to actually speak plainly, 50% of his email would disappear as overly repetitious.
  - CamperBob2 11y ago
    It's specifically anti-productive language. History suggests otherwise.
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      I'm curious what is this history that kernel debuggers lead to the fall of OS projects. I presume Solaris/illumos are all masturbating monkeys? (In fairness, you did prefix your statement with "As a user," so it's obvious you don't have to care about these things.)

nickbauman 11y ago

I'm not a kernel developer but his rant strikes me as very platonic, and not in a good way. Platonic in the sense that real knowledge requires turning away from the cosmos and "deeply introspecting" to obtain a "gnosis" of sorts. Plato, for all his contributions, was at heart a religious ideologue closely aligned with the corruption of the Pythagoreans that came before him. Reality was "the cave" and the gnosis was leaving the cave. Full disclosure: I don't use debuggers myself, partly because it isn't practical (I spend most of my time in Go these days, rather unwillingly I might add, and Clojure. Both languages aren't terribly friendly to step-debugging.) but when I need one I really, really need one.

tremon 11y ago
> Plato [..] was at heart a religious ideologue Which religion would that be?
- nickbauman 11y ago
  I don't know it by name but this quote reveals it pretty soundly: "We shall approach astronomy as we do geometry, by way of problems, and ignore what is in the sky." (Plato's Republic) This kind of thinking is likely the same sort of thinking that got Kepler off the track trying to force the Pythagorean solids into planetary orbits in his Harmonices Mundi. (maybe call it "Pseudoscientism" a belief that merely scientific-looking commonalities are in fact universalities)
  - tremon 11y ago
    I am unclear how "We shall [..] ignore what is in the sky" translates to a religious ideology. It sounds to me like Plato is arguing against the Greek tradition of trying to explain a natural phenomenon by tying its existence to a god, and arguing for (what we now call) scientific rigour. Can you clarify what you mean with "this kind of thinking"?
    - nickbauman 11y ago
      That tradition was not at issue with Plato and his ilk. If you can agree that religion is merely institutionalized ideology, I think by contrast you could look to Aristotle, whose lifespan intersected with Plato's, who took the opposing view: Describing what he has observed about bees, he writes "the facts have not been sufficiently ascertained, then we must trust perception rather than theories." The Greeks formally established the mechanics of inductive reasoning as the formulation of truths from empirical evidence. Plato, for all his gifts, stands firmly in contrast to this. Ideology is fundamentally about turning away from evidence and making the world fit into your polemic.
      - tremon 11y ago
        Actually, their lives intersected, not just their lifespans: Aristotle studied under Plato. If you can agree that religion is merely institutionalized ideology I do not fully agree, as not all ideology would qualify as religion, even if institutionalized. For example, capitalism is not a religion yet it is both an ideology and thoroughly institutionalized. I would agree that religion is a form of institutionalized ideology, but not merely. But I (think I) understand what you're saying. You're saying that because Plato considered fundamental truths unknowable, he made his vision of the world subject to dogma concerning the interplay between the unknowable and our reality. That is certainly true, but I'm unsure how much prescriptive dogma is in Plato's works. Regardless how his theories have been adapted by Christianity later, for as far as I know Plato himself: - never declared empiricism as futile, - did not give his "Shapes" any agency in our reality, - did not create his own narrative of good vs evil. In fact, Plato was quite direct in his approach to morality: people should do "good", because doing good things would bring happiness, and doing bad things would create unhappiness. That is a quite utilitarian approach to civilization, and I would not call this a religious stance. Plato did consider the soul to be immortal, but he also said that learning would begin anew in the next life, so I don't think he subscribed to any form of afterlife judgement.

CamperBob2 11y ago

As a user, I appreciate his attitude. It's not a coincidence that two of the most successful companies in the tech sector -- Apple and Microsoft -- had outspoken founding figures who weren't afraid to condemn bad ideas and sloppy work in plain language. It's a matter of opinion whether their products have suffered, now that neither company has a Steve or a Bill or a Linus running the show. My opinion is that they have.

moron4hire 11y ago
It's not plain language. It's specifically anti-productive language. He's no better than people who are overly officious in their speech, as his diatribes serve just as much to get in the way of his point and muddy understanding as what he believes he's avoiding by cursing at people. If he were to actually speak plainly, 50% of his email would disappear as overly repetitious.
- CamperBob2 11y ago
  It's specifically anti-productive language. History suggests otherwise.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    I'm curious what is this history that kernel debuggers lead to the fall of OS projects. I presume Solaris/illumos are all masturbating monkeys? (In fairness, you did prefix your statement with "As a user," so it's obvious you don't have to care about these things.)