5 ms·

Lol if everyone did open source like Linus, we'd never get any new contributors. I have no idea how this even works in their context either

draw_down 11y ago
And yet, and yet- his contribution to open source is almost unfathomable.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  Absolutely not. Linus has been doing nothing but a managerial role for a long time. His initial cloning of Unix is something that university students across CS departments everywhere practically did as a rite of passage. Theo de Raadt, on the other hand, has never stopped hacking since his days in NetBSD.
  - dasil003 11y ago
    What makes you think management does not contribute? There is no way you can quantify the number of kernel bugs you didn't have to deal with because Linus said no to an ill-conceived feature.
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      That he has vetoed various frivolous proposals is undeniable. There's nothing "unfathomable" about it. I strongly approve of his visceral policy against people breaking userspace. His particular post linked here is nonsense, however.
      - dasil003 11y ago
        I'm not arguing for his post, I'm just offended by your casual implication that "nothing but a managerial role" is an insignificant contribution to the software world for a project like the linux kernel.
gnaritas 11y ago
> Lol if everyone did open source like Linus We'd have less, but much better software.
- kalail 11y ago
  THIS For an opposing example, look at the world of JavaScript.
  - moron4hire 11y ago
    People have really only been doing JavaScript in earnest for the last 7 years. When you consider that, and how terrible the base language actually is, I think it's pretty amazing what people have done with it.
    - edejong 11y ago
      I started writing AJAX callbacks in 2004, and I'm sure I wasn't alone, so 11 years of higher-level JS is certainly a better range. But we should abstract away from the language. We've had 35+ years of experience of designing and implementing user interfaces, including their design patterns (MVC, Action/Event based). History is filled with successful designs. Just consider a sophisticated tool such as your standard IDE: do/undo functionality, separation of concerns, event based, MVC, good standard graphical toolkit, easy deployment and upgrades. These designs are not new, and date back to at least the late 90's (Delphi). What changed? Well, we've been doing incremental design: throw something at the wall, see what sticks and debug the hell out of it while adding new features. Perhaps that design philosophy is not very tenable in the long run.
- this_user 11y ago
  Would we? Your statement implies that creating the kind of environment Linux is developed in somehow weeds out the bad developers while retaining the good ones. Yet, I am not aware of any data that would suggests a positive correlation between development abilities and resilience towards a hostile work environment. Therefore, we can assume that good contributors, too, will be put off, thereby making the project worse than it could be. The best example of this is Alan Cox who did a lot of good work before leaving the Kernel project. I don't think anyone would argue that his exit made the project stronger.
arjn 11y ago
For one this is old hat, from way back. And you're right that you have no idea, because since then thousands of folks have cut their OS teeth on Linux kernel development. (I'm one of them).
joslin01 11y ago
There's a decent chunk of devs who look up to Linus for his seemingly cut-throat opinions because they understand that behind the cold attitude is someone who really cares a lot about a system that is being used by millions (billions?) of people.. it's pointless to indulge devs who can't handle their own emotions at the expense of the system.
davesque 11y ago
The date of this post matters a lot. He said this in 2000. He's softened up a bit since then.
venomsnake 11y ago
Some people like me don't mind working with Drill Sergeant Hartman. Even when we are on the receiving end. My firm beliefs are that stupid should be called out early and with force. If you can't take an ass chewing - you are not in the right place.
cookiecaper 11y ago
I think the reason that some people (particularly, hyper-intelligent people) respond well to Linus's direct language is that they're so frustrated by what they feel is the typical approach of obscuring information and pandering. People aren't really excited that Linus is slinging around insults; they're more excited that someone is willing to give the Straight Dope, the unadulterated truth, a realistic representation, even if that reality make some people unhappy. People get excited about this because it feels rare to them. Ordinarily, when someone is denying an offer or rejecting an idea, they're going to put on the kid gloves and try to make sure you feel good even though they're doing something that, for all intents and purposes, shouldn't make you feel good. Although there is no negative intent when someone is attempting a "sensitive" approach, it can be interpreted as a form of dishonesty and condescension: "why is this person pretending to be doing something good for me when they're so obviously not? do they think I'm so dumb I won't notice?". Frequent contact with that communication style sometimes triggers a deep-seated resentment for it. By the same token, some people are deeply appreciative of the general concern for the recipient's emotional health and self-worth reflected in such statements and are taken aback when they come in contact with someone who doesn't choose to communicate in that way. It's hard to find a middle ground that works for everyone, regardless of their background or perspective. I guess that's why we have professionals dedicated to finding the ideal phraseology for corporate communications. Maybe it could be argued that we shouldn't we try to do that.
- moron4hire 11y ago
  I don't think it's fair to say the sort of language that Torvalds is known for is "direct" or "unadulterated truth". It's absolutely adulterated and indirect, just in a nasty way instead of a nice way.
  - cookiecaper 11y ago
    I don't read it that way. Maybe it's because I've written some agendaless tirades like that myself, but to me, it sounds like he's just pounding out exactly what he's thinking on the subject. Can you point out the parts of the post that you believe are "indirect" or "adulterated", and why you don't believe they're sincere expressions of belief in context?

draw_down 11y ago

And yet, and yet- his contribution to open source is almost unfathomable.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
Absolutely not. Linus has been doing nothing but a managerial role for a long time. His initial cloning of Unix is something that university students across CS departments everywhere practically did as a rite of passage. Theo de Raadt, on the other hand, has never stopped hacking since his days in NetBSD.
- dasil003 11y ago
  What makes you think management does not contribute? There is no way you can quantify the number of kernel bugs you didn't have to deal with because Linus said no to an ill-conceived feature.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    That he has vetoed various frivolous proposals is undeniable. There's nothing "unfathomable" about it. I strongly approve of his visceral policy against people breaking userspace. His particular post linked here is nonsense, however.
    - dasil003 11y ago
      I'm not arguing for his post, I'm just offended by your casual implication that "nothing but a managerial role" is an insignificant contribution to the software world for a project like the linux kernel.

gnaritas 11y ago

> Lol if everyone did open source like Linus We'd have less, but much better software.

kalail 11y ago
THIS For an opposing example, look at the world of JavaScript.
- moron4hire 11y ago
  People have really only been doing JavaScript in earnest for the last 7 years. When you consider that, and how terrible the base language actually is, I think it's pretty amazing what people have done with it.
  - edejong 11y ago
    I started writing AJAX callbacks in 2004, and I'm sure I wasn't alone, so 11 years of higher-level JS is certainly a better range. But we should abstract away from the language. We've had 35+ years of experience of designing and implementing user interfaces, including their design patterns (MVC, Action/Event based). History is filled with successful designs. Just consider a sophisticated tool such as your standard IDE: do/undo functionality, separation of concerns, event based, MVC, good standard graphical toolkit, easy deployment and upgrades. These designs are not new, and date back to at least the late 90's (Delphi). What changed? Well, we've been doing incremental design: throw something at the wall, see what sticks and debug the hell out of it while adding new features. Perhaps that design philosophy is not very tenable in the long run.
this_user 11y ago
Would we? Your statement implies that creating the kind of environment Linux is developed in somehow weeds out the bad developers while retaining the good ones. Yet, I am not aware of any data that would suggests a positive correlation between development abilities and resilience towards a hostile work environment. Therefore, we can assume that good contributors, too, will be put off, thereby making the project worse than it could be. The best example of this is Alan Cox who did a lot of good work before leaving the Kernel project. I don't think anyone would argue that his exit made the project stronger.

arjn 11y ago

For one this is old hat, from way back. And you're right that you have no idea, because since then thousands of folks have cut their OS teeth on Linux kernel development. (I'm one of them).

joslin01 11y ago

There's a decent chunk of devs who look up to Linus for his seemingly cut-throat opinions because they understand that behind the cold attitude is someone who really cares a lot about a system that is being used by millions (billions?) of people.. it's pointless to indulge devs who can't handle their own emotions at the expense of the system.

davesque 11y ago

The date of this post matters a lot. He said this in 2000. He's softened up a bit since then.

venomsnake 11y ago

Some people like me don't mind working with Drill Sergeant Hartman. Even when we are on the receiving end. My firm beliefs are that stupid should be called out early and with force. If you can't take an ass chewing - you are not in the right place.

cookiecaper 11y ago

I think the reason that some people (particularly, hyper-intelligent people) respond well to Linus's direct language is that they're so frustrated by what they feel is the typical approach of obscuring information and pandering. People aren't really excited that Linus is slinging around insults; they're more excited that someone is willing to give the Straight Dope, the unadulterated truth, a realistic representation, even if that reality make some people unhappy. People get excited about this because it feels rare to them. Ordinarily, when someone is denying an offer or rejecting an idea, they're going to put on the kid gloves and try to make sure you feel good even though they're doing something that, for all intents and purposes, shouldn't make you feel good. Although there is no negative intent when someone is attempting a "sensitive" approach, it can be interpreted as a form of dishonesty and condescension: "why is this person pretending to be doing something good for me when they're so obviously not? do they think I'm so dumb I won't notice?". Frequent contact with that communication style sometimes triggers a deep-seated resentment for it. By the same token, some people are deeply appreciative of the general concern for the recipient's emotional health and self-worth reflected in such statements and are taken aback when they come in contact with someone who doesn't choose to communicate in that way. It's hard to find a middle ground that works for everyone, regardless of their background or perspective. I guess that's why we have professionals dedicated to finding the ideal phraseology for corporate communications. Maybe it could be argued that we shouldn't we try to do that.

moron4hire 11y ago
I don't think it's fair to say the sort of language that Torvalds is known for is "direct" or "unadulterated truth". It's absolutely adulterated and indirect, just in a nasty way instead of a nice way.
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  I don't read it that way. Maybe it's because I've written some agendaless tirades like that myself, but to me, it sounds like he's just pounding out exactly what he's thinking on the subject. Can you point out the parts of the post that you believe are "indirect" or "adulterated", and why you don't believe they're sincere expressions of belief in context?