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I'm not sure what fantasy world you live in where the software industry is always adopting the most technologically superior solutions by default. No industry w

I'm not sure what fantasy world you live in where the software industry is always adopting the most technologically superior solutions by default. No industry works like this. YMMV on mainstream (they are widely adopted, though), but: OKL4, PikeOS, QNX... It's quite obvious you have no background on the issues and are using this as an opportunity for provocation.

AnimalMuppet 11y ago
> they are widely adopted, though For some definition of "widely". And feel free to stop adding personal attacks to your comments. They do not enhance the credibility of your posts.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  "Widely adopted" is not a synonym for "known by the average consumer".
  - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
    I know it's not. And I know about QNX, at least (the others are new to me). And I know that you didn't claim they are mainstream, so we may be quibbling about where we draw lines around the word "widely". But... What's the installed base of systems running QNX, say? (Throw in the others if you wish.) Estimates are acceptable, too, if you don't have hard numbers.
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      BlackBerry doesn't seem to give out hard numbers for installations, but they have overviews of the market and lists of particular customers per category here: http://www.qnx.com/solutions/industries/automotive/index.html http://www.qnx.com/solutions/industries/automotive/index.htm... It's not only worth looking how many, but what. They're in vehicles, medical devices, industrial automation, military and telecom. Those are all areas where blunders lead to loss of lives, not just annoying downtimes. Insofar as infotainment and telematics is concerned, they estimate at 60% of 2011, so it's likely your car runs QNX.
      - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
        OK, if it's in cars (even if only one CPU per car, or even only in high-end cars), then yes, that certainly is "widely used". (In terms of numbers shipped, not necessarily in terms of "design wins" - but then, Windows doesn't have that many "design wins" either.)
        vezzy-fnord 11y ago
        So now you're moving the goalposts with "design wins". Just what are the design wins of a SysV Unix clone like Linux, pray tell? It's hard not to be on the offensive when you seem to beg for it. Where did the Windows comparison come from? The design wins, of course, should be obvious to anyone willing to do a modicum of research.
        AnimalMuppet 11y ago
        Nope, not moving the goalposts. Re-read my previous post. To clarify: Windows is, by any definition, both "mainstream" and "widely used". Yet it has very few "design wins". Therefore, the argument that cars are "only a few design wins" cannot be used to say that QNX, say, is not widely used or mainstream, since Windows is obviously mainstream and widely used. > It's hard not to be on the offensive when you seem to beg for it. You need to re-calibrate your sensitivity. You seem eager to take offense at nearly everything. Very little of it is worthy of your outrage.
        carussell 11y ago
        The "design win" comment should be read as a concession to your earlier point about the role of technological superiority in industry decisions.
- Symmetry 11y ago
  Every iPhone now shipping and most Android devices too I believe are running their main operating system kernel as a layer on top of an L4 kernel. They mostly handles low level security and the cell modem and stay out of the way except for that. Still, I think that should certainly count as widely adopted.
  - comex 11y ago
    Correction: in Apple's case, the Secure Enclave, which runs L4, does not run on the application processor but on a separate ARM processor integrated on chip. Competitors tend to use TrustZone and hypervisor mode for this, but Apple currently uses them only for kernel patch protection rather than anything more important. Not that that changes the core fact that Apple is shipping L4.
SEJeff 11y ago
You missed Tron/ETron and the *tron variants, which is likely the most used kernel in the world.
ris 11y ago
"OKL4, PikeOS, QNX" High throughput, mister, high throughput. Realtime != high throughput. It just means deterministic throughput. FSVO deterministic. Show me people running big farms of servers running these operating systems where even single-percentage computational overheads really matter. (added:) The reason for this is that it costs one hell of a lot flipping your page tables and flushing your TLBs every time you have to switch to ("pass a message", whatever) to a different subservice of your kernel. (also added:) Oh and interestingly many (most?) users of OKL4 go on to host Linux inside it because, hey, it turns out that doing all your work in a microkernel ain't always all that great. So 90% of the "kernel" work in these systems is happening in a monolothic kernel.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  QNX4 is high throughput, mister. Other contenders include eMCOS and FFMK, though those are obscure. That said, I don't even understand the logic. HPC clusters where single-percentage overheads really matter are an extremely specialized use case, so of course COTS u-kernels might not cut it. Where's the shocker here? Response to added: Not necessarily with message passing properly integrated with the CPU scheduler. Response to added #2: Hosting a single-server is a valid microkernel use case. What's your problem? Isolation and separation kernels are a major research and usage interest.
  - ris 11y ago
    "QNX4 is high throughput, mister." Ok then, show me the server farms... I'm not even really talking about HPC, just the massive datacentres that run everyone's lives. All for the most part running monolithic kernels. I doubt the thousands of engineers who work on such systems consider the "huge monolithic kernel" "undebuggable". And I don't see examples of microkernel OSs that are able to cut it in these circumstances. Even in a mobile device, you don't really want to waste battery doing context switches inside the kernel. Microkernels have their place, but believing that the world that chooses not to use them are just clearly dumbasses is bullshit dogma.
    - ris 11y ago
addicted 11y ago
Your comment would imply that Javascript may not be the most technologically advanced solution for execution on remote clients. This is obviously wrong, so by implication the Software Industry DOES adopt the most technologically superior solution by default.

AnimalMuppet 11y ago

> they are widely adopted, though For some definition of "widely". And feel free to stop adding personal attacks to your comments. They do not enhance the credibility of your posts.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
"Widely adopted" is not a synonym for "known by the average consumer".
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  I know it's not. And I know about QNX, at least (the others are new to me). And I know that you didn't claim they are mainstream, so we may be quibbling about where we draw lines around the word "widely". But... What's the installed base of systems running QNX, say? (Throw in the others if you wish.) Estimates are acceptable, too, if you don't have hard numbers.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    BlackBerry doesn't seem to give out hard numbers for installations, but they have overviews of the market and lists of particular customers per category here: http://www.qnx.com/solutions/industries/automotive/index.html http://www.qnx.com/solutions/industries/automotive/index.htm... It's not only worth looking how many, but what. They're in vehicles, medical devices, industrial automation, military and telecom. Those are all areas where blunders lead to loss of lives, not just annoying downtimes. Insofar as infotainment and telematics is concerned, they estimate at 60% of 2011, so it's likely your car runs QNX.
    - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
      OK, if it's in cars (even if only one CPU per car, or even only in high-end cars), then yes, that certainly is "widely used". (In terms of numbers shipped, not necessarily in terms of "design wins" - but then, Windows doesn't have that many "design wins" either.)
      - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
        So now you're moving the goalposts with "design wins". Just what are the design wins of a SysV Unix clone like Linux, pray tell? It's hard not to be on the offensive when you seem to beg for it. Where did the Windows comparison come from? The design wins, of course, should be obvious to anyone willing to do a modicum of research.
        AnimalMuppet 11y ago
        Nope, not moving the goalposts. Re-read my previous post. To clarify: Windows is, by any definition, both "mainstream" and "widely used". Yet it has very few "design wins". Therefore, the argument that cars are "only a few design wins" cannot be used to say that QNX, say, is not widely used or mainstream, since Windows is obviously mainstream and widely used. > It's hard not to be on the offensive when you seem to beg for it. You need to re-calibrate your sensitivity. You seem eager to take offense at nearly everything. Very little of it is worthy of your outrage.
        carussell 11y ago
        The "design win" comment should be read as a concession to your earlier point about the role of technological superiority in industry decisions.
Symmetry 11y ago
Every iPhone now shipping and most Android devices too I believe are running their main operating system kernel as a layer on top of an L4 kernel. They mostly handles low level security and the cell modem and stay out of the way except for that. Still, I think that should certainly count as widely adopted.
- comex 11y ago
  Correction: in Apple's case, the Secure Enclave, which runs L4, does not run on the application processor but on a separate ARM processor integrated on chip. Competitors tend to use TrustZone and hypervisor mode for this, but Apple currently uses them only for kernel patch protection rather than anything more important. Not that that changes the core fact that Apple is shipping L4.

SEJeff 11y ago

You missed Tron/ETron and the *tron variants, which is likely the most used kernel in the world.

ris 11y ago

"OKL4, PikeOS, QNX" High throughput, mister, high throughput. Realtime != high throughput. It just means deterministic throughput. FSVO deterministic. Show me people running big farms of servers running these operating systems where even single-percentage computational overheads really matter. (added:) The reason for this is that it costs one hell of a lot flipping your page tables and flushing your TLBs every time you have to switch to ("pass a message", whatever) to a different subservice of your kernel. (also added:) Oh and interestingly many (most?) users of OKL4 go on to host Linux inside it because, hey, it turns out that doing all your work in a microkernel ain't always all that great. So 90% of the "kernel" work in these systems is happening in a monolothic kernel.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
QNX4 is high throughput, mister. Other contenders include eMCOS and FFMK, though those are obscure. That said, I don't even understand the logic. HPC clusters where single-percentage overheads really matter are an extremely specialized use case, so of course COTS u-kernels might not cut it. Where's the shocker here? Response to added: Not necessarily with message passing properly integrated with the CPU scheduler. Response to added #2: Hosting a single-server is a valid microkernel use case. What's your problem? Isolation and separation kernels are a major research and usage interest.
- ris 11y ago
  "QNX4 is high throughput, mister." Ok then, show me the server farms... I'm not even really talking about HPC, just the massive datacentres that run everyone's lives. All for the most part running monolithic kernels. I doubt the thousands of engineers who work on such systems consider the "huge monolithic kernel" "undebuggable". And I don't see examples of microkernel OSs that are able to cut it in these circumstances. Even in a mobile device, you don't really want to waste battery doing context switches inside the kernel. Microkernels have their place, but believing that the world that chooses not to use them are just clearly dumbasses is bullshit dogma.
  - ris 11y ago

addicted 11y ago

Your comment would imply that Javascript may not be the most technologically advanced solution for execution on remote clients. This is obviously wrong, so by implication the Software Industry DOES adopt the most technologically superior solution by default.