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When you think Gnome, you probably think Fedora. Fedora and Gnome are buddy-buddy, and being basically the upstream of RHEL makes it the place to be if you are
by zanny 11y ago
When you think Gnome, you probably think Fedora. Fedora and Gnome are buddy-buddy, and being basically the upstream of RHEL makes it the place to be if you are big on Gnome. KDE has Kubuntu, kind of, since its sponsored by Blue Systems, but there is a huge issue with how KDE is presented to users in that the Ubuntu release cycle has no correlation to the KDE one, and since Plasma 5 has started shipping in Kubuntu that problem has become a catastrophic deal breaker. The KDE community made a great move by breaking up the release cycles of frameworks / plasma / applications, but Ubuntu itself does not care - which lead to releases like 15.04, where 5.2 was shipped despite 5.3 coming out the same week and being significantly more stable, but Kubuntu users would never see that release until 6 months later. Now, 5.5 is out a few months after 15.10, and again a much more stable release won't see Kubuntu until April of next year.
I'm pretty high on the KDE koolaid, and contribute a lot to the project, and it is the most painful experience to know there is no actual answer to the question of what distro I should be recommending to people for a KDE experience. A sane KDE distro should be shipping these new updates after a testing period - all at once, preferably, I use Arch mainly but its release model also conflicts with KDEs since - for example - 5.5 came out developed against upstream Frameworks which eventually released weeks later as 5.17 (frameworks are released monthly), but 5.5 with 5.16 was broken as hell. Applications 15.12 came out weeks later after that, and were a seamless upgrade because they were also developed against the same Frameworks version, but they were already available and thus everything went swimmingly.
Fundamentally my point is that I imagine despite Fedora and Gnomes friendliness, the problem happens there too. It doesn't hurt that software availability on Fedora is awful and it is not presented at all as a consumer desktop since its more of a test bed for RHEL. Distros today are shipping around either fixed releases - that because of the fragmentation of the ecosystem nobody is targeting upstream - or around arbitrary goals, which can be years of waiting (cough, Suse, Fedora). But on the flipside an average user almost certainly does not want a fully rolling release like Arch, because breakage in Arch often doesn't stop a package from being pushed to release (and often those bugs are missed because Arch doesn't have enough users of testing to catch everything) and the constant churn means your system only works precariously in its current configuration - trying to roll back anything on Arch is insanely hard, because everything is built against the latest and greatest of everything else. Thus, there remains significant value in releasing updates at once.
What I really wish we had was Kubuntu, sponsored by Blue Systems, just with updated userspace software on a regular basis (feel free to freeze the LTS, or even have two repos at install - frozen or not) This problem is mentioned in the OP, but it can be soul crushing for a developer in this purgatory because your fixes and improvements may not see the light of day for almost a year or more.
Personally I'd love to see an Arch derivative (since it has IMO the least age rot and bloat of modern distros, cough Suse /etc/init.d after having systemd for years) that just did frozen monthly releases. You release, you wait two weeks, you freeze, you test, you release again all at once. Users get latest and greatest but you can also hold back anything broken until its unbroken. But that kind of commitment requires work, the kind of work you cannot just throw on hobbyists and hope gets done, the kind that needs salaries and business. I still wonder why there isn't any commercial presence of full stack computer vendors of Gnome / KDE - boutique vendors that ship distros running non-Ubuntu that then use their revenue to develop it.
That was a lot of typing, but just some anecdotal remarks:
Linux grsec is the greatest security project ever, and nobody supports it. Selinux / Apparmor / Tomoyo are all trash by comparison, and Arch's stock kernel doesn't even have MAC at all. It is also probably the greatest notch in Linux's belt over Windows that it can be objectively secure, when you actually care about security cough Wayland. There is a distro I see in my dreams that has secure packages, user repositories, and PAX enforcement to prevent malware from accessing anything but its own personal .config file and .share directory. Users can install their own packages rather than having to install them systemwide, but the package manager is smart enough to promote software installed by multiple users to a shared hierarchy rather than duplicating space usage. And the filesystem layout makes sense (/usr...).
xdg-app is supposed to be this pancea that saves the desktop from application fragmentation. It should give us sandboxing, appstream metadata dependencies so we don't need insane duplication of all the system libraries like in click packages, and a puppy. Lets see if that ever happens.
Audio will never get better. Just use pulseaudio and fix it where you can. I'm working on improving plasma-pa for KDE right now to make it more like the old Veromix widget (which was great). It already does its job of catching ALSA applications that would try to steal the soundcard, and rather than try to throw away all the work that went into it we just need to make it suck less.
- gerbilly 11y agoI found that using Eclipse on KDE lately was very problematic. Something about SWT requiring Gnome themes, that had been recently unilaterally converted to use CSS for styling, or something... Gah! It took lots of fiddling to be able to open dialogs on Eclipse without crashing the whole application, and even after all that fiddling it never worked right. Had to switch to Gnome to get it to work right, on linux, but hated that... I know it's not KDE's fault if Gnome wants to change how it's themes work, or that SWT uses gnome, but between that and systemd making everything utterly confusing I don't use linux as a desktop os anymore, despite using it since Yaggsdril. tl;dr: I now develop on OS X now, so I can open dialogs in Eclipse without crashing.
- gmb2k1 11y agoAdd the following to your eclipse.ini: --launcher.GTK_version 2 Alternatively set the environment variable SWT_GTK3 to zero to launch eclipse: export SWT_GTK3=0; /path_to_your_eclipse/eclipse As a side benefit: GTK2 with a compact theme will also make a much better use of your screen real estate. Especially important, if you want to work on laptop with a small screen diagonal. GTK3 as it comes out of the box is just ridiculous in this regard. Eclipse is completely unusable with GTK3 on my 1200x800 12" machine because of that.
- benwaffle 11y agoHave you tried manjaro?
- zanny 11y agoI'm talking about a consumer grade implementation of KDE I can recommend people over Windows. Manjaro has no MAC, has an unstable release cycle, doesn't have the manpower to maintain that testing window I describe, and is reliant too much on the AUR to a fault. Arch gets away with the AUR because the audience is power users. You cannot push a consumer grade distribution with access to arbitrary software installers that have system level access that anyone can upload. Like I said, it would take commercial level support and infrastructure and work. To make consumer grade Arch would take sallaried testers and auditors of the software "store" that the AUR would be, except what you would be doing is maintaining your own repository of AUR packages you trust and maintain yourself, and would need some means for users to get their software approved. And like I said, you need security profiles for every package, and pacman doesn't support per-user application installs, and has nascent delta support (that is there, but sadly not mainstream). Manjaro is a start. Netrunner Rolling is too. Chakra is a third. But none take the task seriously enough, because they are made to be less rapid Arch's, not a consumer product. Its simply not something a hobbyist community can accomplish because inherent to being a community distro is the inability to design and target those outside it effectively. Its simply a problem that requires money and commercial support that could be easily picked up and done by any company that wants to take it on but it isn't something the community can make themselves.