6 ms·

If I were a demon from Hell, tasked by Satan himself to ruin discourse about opportunity and egalitarianism, I could scarcely do better than calling people "pri

by chroma 11y ago

If I were a demon from Hell, tasked by Satan himself to ruin discourse about opportunity and egalitarianism, I could scarcely do better than calling people "privileged". Think about it from the accused's point of view. Yes they were lucky in many ways, but they also worked hard to get to where they are. Then someone belittles their efforts, claiming it's simply because they are privileged. Privileged? Even an average person has to overcome a ridiculous amount of adversity to be successful. Calling someone privileged immediately makes the conversation antagonistic. Instead, I think it's much more effective to use "lucky" or "fortunate". People won't shy away from those adjectives. If anything, they'll readily accept them. This starts the conversation on a much friendlier note and makes people more likely to work with you. Edit: Looking up Danilo, I see he perfectly fits my example of ruining discourse by being overly antagonistic. When Y Combinator posted about their efforts to improve diversity in startups[1], he chastised them and misconstrued Sam Altman's words.[2] When Altman asked him for advice and help, Danilo just got angry and accused Altman of trying to get him to work for free.[3] This sort of behavior is extremely counterproductive. It polarizes the conversation and alienates large swaths of potential helpers. 1. http://blog.ycombinator.com/diversity-and-startups http://blog.ycombinator.com/diversity-and-startups 2. https://twitter.com/_danilo/status/492764323874222081 https://twitter.com/_danilo/status/492764323874222081 3. https://twitter.com/_danilo/status/492840606054363136 https://twitter.com/_danilo/status/492840606054363136

eropple 11y ago
That's why I generally start with "lucky" or "fortunate", indeed! But the concept of privilege is a sociological one, and does eventually need to be addressed. Because this isn't about you, or me, it's about the systems that put people in the places where they are and work to keep them there. "I am incredibly privileged" is not a statement that offends me, because I actually know what it means. As per your edit: I don't necessarily agree with the level of vitriol, because I have had good interactions with Altman, but I'm not in Danilo's head and I am not part of the groups who YC was (not so much anymore, to their credit) and HN is (routinely even today, despite the very good efforts of people like dang) marginalizing and attacking. HN is a business asset for YC, and if you want somebody's help to improve your business asset, you pay them. Especially when you screwed up in the first place.
rdtsc 11y ago
Nobody is accused here. Let's not get too excited. Privilege is a loaded word so I should have used another one perhaps. Privilege is strategic position of advantage. You have or have access to time, money, wealth, power, super-power etc that other don't have. And it is relative. I'd say tech people have that power compared to workers in an Amazon warehouse. We can work from home, can demand our own salaries, jump to cool exciting companies. Don't have to break our backs. Instead of thinking about what to feed the children with we think what type of Apple watch to buy etc. So far we haven't talked how each individual or cohort as a whole reached that level. Some worked hard, some didn't. Some got lucky by picking the right field to go on. Some were just passionate about a hobby (me). Some were bullied and got to spend more time inside (me) and apparently OP. > Privileged? Even an average person has to overcome a ridiculous amount of adversity to be successful. And now if they live in a Western country, with a great healthcare, good weather, police protection. They are privileged compared to those that are being bombed, raped, or are starving in many parts of the world. And my point is, looking back those people will say "I am here because I worked hard and everyone one else who is complaining is kind of lazy and should have worked hard as ". I say "it's complicating" and people will often attribute too much to their hard work and discount luck, and other factors -- family connections, good neighborhood, safe area, a good health insurance, maybe a specific literacy program promoted by their government, or other factors (even negative ones like "I was bullied nerd so I was in the house more and that gave a me a chance to focus more on study"). > Instead, I think it's much more effective to use "lucky" or "fortunate". Those are good to describe how they got to the position of privilege. Which often has a mix of things like luck, hard work, and others. That is why used the word. Using something like "strategic life advantage" sounds a bit odd though.
- marknutter 11y ago
  > And my point is, looking back those people will say "I am here because I worked hard and everyone one else who is complaining is kind of lazy and should have worked hard as That's a ridiculous straw man. I don't think anyone in this thread would agree with that statement. > Those are good to describe how they got to the position of privilege. Which often has a mix of things like luck, hard work, and others. That is why used the word. Using something like "strategic life advantage" sounds a bit odd though. Of course we all rely on a bit of luck and help from others. But the problem with telling someone you've never met before that they need to "check their privilege" is that you don't know a thing about them. It's offensive in exactly the same way that accusing the poor of being lazy is. If you don't take the time to get to know someone and learn about what they've been through and why they are where they are then you don't get to say things like "you're lazy" or "you're privileged". If you'll pardon my French, "you don't fucking know me".

by chroma 11y ago

eropple 11y ago

That's why I generally start with "lucky" or "fortunate", indeed! But the concept of privilege is a sociological one, and does eventually need to be addressed. Because this isn't about you, or me, it's about the systems that put people in the places where they are and work to keep them there. "I am incredibly privileged" is not a statement that offends me, because I actually know what it means. As per your edit: I don't necessarily agree with the level of vitriol, because I have had good interactions with Altman, but I'm not in Danilo's head and I am not part of the groups who YC was (not so much anymore, to their credit) and HN is (routinely even today, despite the very good efforts of people like dang) marginalizing and attacking. HN is a business asset for YC, and if you want somebody's help to improve your business asset, you pay them. Especially when you screwed up in the first place.

rdtsc 11y ago

Nobody is accused here. Let's not get too excited. Privilege is a loaded word so I should have used another one perhaps. Privilege is strategic position of advantage. You have or have access to time, money, wealth, power, super-power etc that other don't have. And it is relative. I'd say tech people have that power compared to workers in an Amazon warehouse. We can work from home, can demand our own salaries, jump to cool exciting companies. Don't have to break our backs. Instead of thinking about what to feed the children with we think what type of Apple watch to buy etc. So far we haven't talked how each individual or cohort as a whole reached that level. Some worked hard, some didn't. Some got lucky by picking the right field to go on. Some were just passionate about a hobby (me). Some were bullied and got to spend more time inside (me) and apparently OP. > Privileged? Even an average person has to overcome a ridiculous amount of adversity to be successful. And now if they live in a Western country, with a great healthcare, good weather, police protection. They are privileged compared to those that are being bombed, raped, or are starving in many parts of the world. And my point is, looking back those people will say "I am here because I worked hard and everyone one else who is complaining is kind of lazy and should have worked hard as ". I say "it's complicating" and people will often attribute too much to their hard work and discount luck, and other factors -- family connections, good neighborhood, safe area, a good health insurance, maybe a specific literacy program promoted by their government, or other factors (even negative ones like "I was bullied nerd so I was in the house more and that gave a me a chance to focus more on study"). > Instead, I think it's much more effective to use "lucky" or "fortunate". Those are good to describe how they got to the position of privilege. Which often has a mix of things like luck, hard work, and others. That is why used the word. Using something like "strategic life advantage" sounds a bit odd though.

marknutter 11y ago
> And my point is, looking back those people will say "I am here because I worked hard and everyone one else who is complaining is kind of lazy and should have worked hard as That's a ridiculous straw man. I don't think anyone in this thread would agree with that statement. > Those are good to describe how they got to the position of privilege. Which often has a mix of things like luck, hard work, and others. That is why used the word. Using something like "strategic life advantage" sounds a bit odd though. Of course we all rely on a bit of luck and help from others. But the problem with telling someone you've never met before that they need to "check their privilege" is that you don't know a thing about them. It's offensive in exactly the same way that accusing the poor of being lazy is. If you don't take the time to get to know someone and learn about what they've been through and why they are where they are then you don't get to say things like "you're lazy" or "you're privileged". If you'll pardon my French, "you don't fucking know me".