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You need the time to teach yourself. There are hard limits on the amount of physical and mental work a person can do, especially if the mental work requires sig

by mentat 11y ago

You need the time to teach yourself. There are hard limits on the amount of physical and mental work a person can do, especially if the mental work requires significant concentration. I don't see you taking account of that at all.

afarrell 11y ago
To emphasize mentat's point, you need focused time where your mind is rested and alert. This requires good, regularly-scheduled sleep. This requires nutritionally complete food (though soylent has made this much easier). This probably requires that you not be stressed out by fear of violence or eviction. Also, don't underestimate the value of an educational environment. You can spend a lot of time banging your head against the wall if you don't have an effective way to reach out for help. A mailing list or IRC channel is only useful if you have the skill and focus to compose your question coherently.
- mahyarm 11y ago
  All the same applies to any job that requires formal education. A rested mind, good enough food, free time, a safe environment and so on. There are also people who do not do well at all in an educational environment, and the lack of one is a benefit towards learning programming for them. All that most people are saying is the barriers to becoming a software developer vs. other professions are lower and cheaper than most others. There are still barriers and challenges, just like everything else in improving one's life.
- xiaoma 11y ago
  I mostly lived off of cornflakes, coconut water, occasional fruits and a weekly chicken binge (or other food from a Chinese butcher shop) when I was becoming a programmer. It took very little time and cost less than a third of what Soylent does. I used a book called Learn to program, by Chris Pine. There's a free version online. After that, I did some stuff on code school.
mahyarm 11y ago
I did say "time to teach yourself", please read more closely.
- mentat 11y ago
  > With almost anything else you need all of the above plus a college or other formal education. I did misread this. Still I'm not sure this is true. Is it really the case that only in computers you're not required to have formal education to get a well placed job? That seems unlikely. I don't feel that I have enough information either way from my own experience (in computers, without a formal education in it and knowing many others lacking formal education) but it seems like an exceptional claim that there is only one field that works this way. Construction is the first other than comes to mind. It's also funny because this is one of the things we get criticized most about, the lack of professional qualification while using potentially very dangerous tools.
  - mahyarm 11y ago
    That is why I said 'almost', not 'only'. I'm not personally aware of anything else like this other than starting your own business. And starting a successful business is far harder than teaching yourself programming. Computers are not dangerous of themselves, they are dangerous when you rely on them. When you screw up software it's really easy to hit the reset button at no cost. When you screw up fixing a device, it might cost you money. Also in construction you usually need some sort of formal education for the better paying jobs. Plumbers, electricians and so on have certifications, licenses apprenticeship programs.
    - mentat 11y ago
      I've been working on software systems for a couple decades where you can't just hit the reset button because they matter so I'm not particularly incline to agree on that point. The vocational school system still exists for the trades I believe though you hardly hear about it now that for profits have taken over the "non-classical" education spaces.

by mentat 11y ago

afarrell 11y ago

To emphasize mentat's point, you need focused time where your mind is rested and alert. This requires good, regularly-scheduled sleep. This requires nutritionally complete food (though soylent has made this much easier). This probably requires that you not be stressed out by fear of violence or eviction. Also, don't underestimate the value of an educational environment. You can spend a lot of time banging your head against the wall if you don't have an effective way to reach out for help. A mailing list or IRC channel is only useful if you have the skill and focus to compose your question coherently.

mahyarm 11y ago
All the same applies to any job that requires formal education. A rested mind, good enough food, free time, a safe environment and so on. There are also people who do not do well at all in an educational environment, and the lack of one is a benefit towards learning programming for them. All that most people are saying is the barriers to becoming a software developer vs. other professions are lower and cheaper than most others. There are still barriers and challenges, just like everything else in improving one's life.
xiaoma 11y ago
I mostly lived off of cornflakes, coconut water, occasional fruits and a weekly chicken binge (or other food from a Chinese butcher shop) when I was becoming a programmer. It took very little time and cost less than a third of what Soylent does. I used a book called Learn to program, by Chris Pine. There's a free version online. After that, I did some stuff on code school.

mahyarm 11y ago

I did say "time to teach yourself", please read more closely.

mentat 11y ago
> With almost anything else you need all of the above plus a college or other formal education. I did misread this. Still I'm not sure this is true. Is it really the case that only in computers you're not required to have formal education to get a well placed job? That seems unlikely. I don't feel that I have enough information either way from my own experience (in computers, without a formal education in it and knowing many others lacking formal education) but it seems like an exceptional claim that there is only one field that works this way. Construction is the first other than comes to mind. It's also funny because this is one of the things we get criticized most about, the lack of professional qualification while using potentially very dangerous tools.
- mahyarm 11y ago
  That is why I said 'almost', not 'only'. I'm not personally aware of anything else like this other than starting your own business. And starting a successful business is far harder than teaching yourself programming. Computers are not dangerous of themselves, they are dangerous when you rely on them. When you screw up software it's really easy to hit the reset button at no cost. When you screw up fixing a device, it might cost you money. Also in construction you usually need some sort of formal education for the better paying jobs. Plumbers, electricians and so on have certifications, licenses apprenticeship programs.
  - mentat 11y ago
    I've been working on software systems for a couple decades where you can't just hit the reset button because they matter so I'm not particularly incline to agree on that point. The vocational school system still exists for the trades I believe though you hardly hear about it now that for profits have taken over the "non-classical" education spaces.