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Maybe we're just misunderstanding what each other means by privilege. > why can't coal miners just start writing single page apps in React.js over a few weeken

• eropple 11y ago
  The term "privilege" is being used here in the social sense of the word, not the generic sense of the word. Which, to me as somebody who's spent a decent bit of time wrestling with the fact that, yes, I am incredibly privileged, is actually a little irritating--it's jargon but many people try to wedge it in as a normal word, much like (but less egregiously than) how Stallmanites try to co-opt "free". > If a person wants to claim my background is privileged and that's what enabled it all and stake claim to what I have as a result Which literally nobody does. That's the price of using jargon and expecting everybody to already understand you, and it's what drives me batshit. Privilege is not referring to the genesis of your accomplishments. Privilege is referring to the difficulty slider. And very, very few people in tech are at 'normal', to say nothing of 'easy' or 'very easy'. And it is generally considered gauche to roll one's eyes (and while I don't think you necessarily mean to, I kind of get that vibe a little? not maliciously) at somebody who's cranked up to 'holy shit impossible'. I am at 'very easy' on that slider, even though I've had things that (to me) feel really shitty: my mom left town when I was ten, my brain doesn't quite work right all the time, and I am punishingly introverted. But the sum of the things working for me that were an accident of birth--I'm white, I'm male, I was born in America--is so huge by comparison that I have it on easy street. And it doesn't diminish me to acknowledge that. It does behoove me to recognize it and to help people who aren't so very fortunate, though, which is why I get real salty around here when the cryptoracist and outright racist contingents start pontificating at length about "the black mentality" or other garbage thoughts. (Which I am emphatically not saying you are doing, but happens all-too-often around here.) Chew on this: http://danilocampos.com/2013/02/unpacking-my-knapsack-the-privileges-of-a-hispanic-male-in-tech/ http://danilocampos.com/2013/02/unpacking-my-knapsack-the-pr... - Danilo is an HN poster (one of my favorites) and this is a tremendous thing that's worth reading. Because he hits on something that's important, and I wish was more the focus of these discussions than "pfft, you have privilege," when he says: "Any pride I take in that hard work is dwarfed by the anxiety that I don’t yet know how to help others get to the point where they can work as hard as I have." (A lot of what defensive people see as "shut up" when the concept of privilege is invoked is really "think about what you should be grateful for, and extend graciousness to others." But that requires an understanding of the concepts involved, and...argh.)
  • afarrell 11y ago
    > It's jargon but many people try to wedge it as a normal word Yes, this is a problem. If you push back on it, some people will say "this is Social Justice 101", completely missing the fact that an intro course spends a lot of its time teaching jargon. > Which literally nobody does ... > A lot of what defensive people see as "shut up" when the concept of privilege is invoked is really Well, having been in many of these conversations, I can say that yes, there are people who use the word privilege to mean "shut up". There are people who genuinely exhibit more of an interest in clawing people down than in spreading understanding. Understanding how privilege operates and recognizing ones own is still super-important. It is particularly important when trying design solutions (like hackerspaces, bootcamps, tutorials, etc) to social problems. But it is also important to recognize that sometimes people just use social justice discourse as a way to feel righteous while carelessly insulting people they just don't like. It is important to be able to recognize when someone has no interest in problem solving and to disengage from conversations with those people. Thanks for the link by the way.
    • eropple 11y ago
      Trying to maybe teach a few people a few things is most of why I hang out around here--it's not good for my sanity to go "oh hey, that thread's going to have a bunch of people shitting on poor people/black people/immigrants", but maybe once in a while some sense can work its way into somebody. And there are definitely assholes who use the concept as a bat--one can be an asshole and still be on the right side of history, of course. "Literally nobody does" was referring to the strange bugbear of "you are privileged and thus deserve nothing you have earned," which is generally a (defensively or politically motivated) misreading of "you've been really lucky, you should pay it forward."
      • marknutter 11y ago
        > "Literally nobody does" was referring to the strange bugbear of "you are privileged and thus deserve nothing you have earned," Except that I have met many people who hold exactly this belief. > And there are definitely assholes who use the concept as a bat--one can be an asshole and still be on the right side of history, of course. How can they be on the right side of history if they hurt the cause they claim to fight for by being an asshole? If you've moved the needle in the wrong direction, you're worse than the people who sit idly by and do nothing, IMO. > Trying to maybe teach a few people a few things is most of why I hang out around here Ugh.. gross. You're here for the wrong reasons.
• js8 11y ago
  I think what makes you privileged is the fact you mostly don't have to deal with bullshit (that's on the edge of - or beyond - workplace law) that is described in the article in your workplace. It's only tangentially related to computers.
• rdtsc 11y ago
  > "privilege mentality" I see a discussion ensued ;-) The privilege mentality I define as a worldview (or call it an attitude) where those who have the privilege (it doesn't have to be money, it could be time, social status, freedom, or health, or any other significant advantage) have a hard time understanding the position of those that don't have it. This usually happens when talking about wealth as privilege. And manifests in examples where rich people will look with disdain at poor people and will label them as lazy or "in charge of their own fate, yet deciding not to take advantage of it" etc. This often happens because they look back at their own lives, and think they got wealthy / powerful through sheer willpower and hard work. In reality it turns out a nice inheritance helped, going to an Ivy League helped, being lucky to invest at the right time in a market worked, having the right friends at the right time worked, etc. What has happened in that case is the privileged person re-wrote or re-interpreted their own history to make it better and more agreeable story (rather than, well I got lucky and inherited a bunch of money, it ends up with, I set up a successful hedge fund with my college buddies etc). But I was referring to "privilege" not just as wealth but as being in the tech industry, where wages and demand is much better than other industries. Good programmers can often ask for high salaries. They can work from home, etc. That is not comparing with Donald Trumps out there, but comparing to those that work for TSA, or McDonalds or Amazon. What often comes out of it is well meaning ideas like "teach coal miners to program" and so on, because looking back it seems like programming is pretty easy and with a bit of free time on the weekend one can easily end up with a 6 figure jobs. In reality things are different and a lot more goes into what makes a person now successful.
  • marknutter 11y ago
    So what about people who start out with very little and become "privileged" later on? If I am a self made millionaire (no inheritance, no college, etc) can I then have an opinion about poor people? I think I know your answer, though, and it's that nobody actually becomes successful on their own; that we all owe everything we earn to other people, and therefore can never truly take full credit for anything we accomplish. I think people in this world can be very neatly divided into those who share this opinion and those who do not. It might even be the quintessential disagreement between liberals and conservatives (or socialists and capitalists, for that matter). The truth, as always, is that it's a very nuanced issue, and we both have valid points. You're right about people who inherit all their wealth. They often lack basic empathy for their fellow citizens and lack the understanding that they didn't truly earn what they have. And I'm right that there are people out there who truly do, against all odds, become successful without much help from anyone else. I think it's extremely important to recognize both of those truths and call them both what they are rather than yelling past each other to push our own political or ideological agendas. I struggle with this on a daily basis, especially as a former liberal.