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I think it's great articles like that get posted here - it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. It's a good reminder of privileg
by js8 11y ago
I think it's great articles like that get posted here - it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. It's a good reminder of privilege.
- kbart 11y agoAgree. It's a typical low paid, manual labor job in UK (and I guess elsewhere in western part of the world). The name "Amazon" is just to attract an attention, situation is pretty similar everywhere in this type of jobs. I'm from Eastern Europe (where the most immigrants and low level workers are from in UK) and have a lot of relatives/friends doing such jobs, and same or even much worse stories are not uncommon. The bright side of the story is, that for many, such jobs are temporary while achieving greater goals (i.e. studying or saving money to start their own business).
- marknutter 11y ago> it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. I absolutely would accept those employment conditions if I didn't have any other options and needed to make money to survive. I would also spend my free time learning a skill so I could get a better job at some point in the future. > It's a good reminder of privilege. It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability. In tech more than any other field, because you don't need a college degree to get a good paying job. You just need to have the desire and ambition to learn.
- kdazzle 11y agoMan, and here I thought social Darwinism was dead
- lucisferre 11y ago> free time What makes you think those people have free time after 12.5 hour days and a commute out to the middle of nowhere?
- rdtsc 11y ago> What makes you think those people have free time after 12.5 hour days and a commute out to the middle of nowhere? I think that's what the OP called the "privilege". Those that have it, don't see why others can't do the same. It comes from having a completely different world view and priorities. That's why it is common to hear "how come they don't sit down learn to code and become full stack developers, that would be so easy."
- d23 11y agoYes, I had the privilege of having a basic computer with dialup as a kid. My family moved so I had no friends and was bullied constantly. For this reason, I became obsessed with the computer, learned to program, and ultimately it got me a job. I'm not sure I would describe that as the height of privilege. I spent most of my childhood living in a trailer. Plenty of people I know had access to the same thing (most of them actually), they just didn't pursue it. It's frustrating to hear people make assumptions about myself and others in the industry. I had someone talk about how "disgusting" it was that there were so many white males in tech. Of course, she said this to my face, and I'm a white dude. Believe it or not, it didn't feel great. It's as though a bunch of people who had zero interest in tech for the last 20 years suddenly think they should have all of the same skills and opportunities as us that have spent our childhoods buried in it.
- rdtsc 11y ago> I'm not sure I would describe that as the height of privilege. You probably have a better paying job and more free time than than most people (and as a nice side effect than people who bullied you probably). The privilege mentality is thinking that you made the decision to go into tech consciously because you knew it was going to be hot in 20 years and will end up with a well paying job. But it sounds like you didn't, just like me, you were poor, and was really passionate about computers. Being bullied (I was too) also had a side effect of isolating you for longer periods of time. Looking back, I'd like to think of myself as having great insight and a keen sense of predicting the future, knowing that computers and internet will be big and I'd have a way to crawl out of poverty. Then I methodically executed that vision over the next 20 years. But, that would be dishonest, because it is not how it happened. Maybe it did for you... In general, yeah, it would be great if more people would start coding and things would be more diverse. But sometimes we make it too simple and we re-write memories and history as to how we started coding and think -- why can't coal miners just start writing single page apps in React.js over a few weekends, why can't this part time middle aged mom from Walmart who was laid off as an HR person just write Android apps and make more money.
- stank345 11y ago> I would also spend my free time learning a skill so I could get a better job at some point in the future. Depending on your situation, free time that you can actually use to learn a skill -- after you've commuted home, fed yourself, done household chores, assuming you aren't too exhausted to just pass out or do something mindless -- may also be a luxury you don't have.
- ra1n85 11y agoI think you'll observe an impedance mismatch with this crowd and your thoughts on having control over one's fate. Desire and ambition don't seem to have the same appeal as being a victim of circumstances (in the first world, no less).
- geofft 11y ago> It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability. In tech more than any other field, because you don't need a college degree to get a good paying job. You just need to have the desire and ambition to learn. My takeaway from the fact that you don't need any particular formal education to get a well-paying job is that the tech industry hires and pays people without regard to ability. Like, the entire reason FizzBuzz has gotten popular is that it's not just possible but common to have the résumé of a senior developer (i.e., to have held all the jobs you'd expect a senior developer candidate to have held and be paid for those jobs, i.e., to have passed multiple tech interviews) and be unable to write it. You can argue about whether "privilege" got these people in the position of being a senior developer candidate, but it certainly wasn't ability.
- song 11y agoWell, to be fair, in my experience hiring, I've had far more freshly graduated potential hires that couldn't do the FizzBuzz test than senior devs. So much so that I usually gave something more complex to do than just a simple fizzbuzz like test.
- Lawtonfogle 11y agoJust to be clear, what do you mean by unable to write it? Are the cases where people make a common mistake, but are quickly able to fix it, counted (such as forgetting to fizz and buzz for certain numbers). What about cases where the people can code the algorithm, but can't do everything to get a program that will compile. For example, using Visual Studio with C# means some of the basic scaffolding is almost always generated and thus many developers aren't able to recall what that scaffolding is off the top of their heads. Or is it limited to cases where they just sit there staring at a blank sheet of paper not sure how to proceed?
- geofft 11y agoI'm going off of the standard treatment of the problem, from people who do a ton of interviews: http://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/ http://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/ http://imranontech.com/2007/01/24/using-fizzbuzz-to-find-developers-who-grok-coding/ http://imranontech.com/2007/01/24/using-fizzbuzz-to-find-dev... My reading is that the scaffolding isn't the problem, writing that loop and conditional, within the margin of error of what compiler errors / an IDE can tell you to fix, is the problem. So essentially yes, they're staring at a blank sheet of paper.
- moron4hire 11y agoHear, hear. I have worked in a warehouse before (part of paying my own way through college). It wasn't that bad, in the grand scheme of things. Hell, I've been treated less as a person at some of my software development jobs.
- xiaoma 11y ago>part of paying my own way through college That's getting a lot harder to do in the US these days.
- VLM 11y ago"I would also spend my free time learning a skill" They only get 13 hours a day away from work, minus long sounding (and expensive) public transit each way, so good luck with that. Of course its temp work so between jobs, as long as they somehow have a place to live and food to eat, they could study, in theory. Also most unskilled labor jobs are already staffed with skilled laborers. Everyone in unskilled labor older than about 20 already has some story along the lines of "I was a (blank) before the (accident | disease | downsizing | divorce) and now I'm here in the warehouse, no jobs you know." Why would a newly educated nurse or soldier get hired when there's a better qualified experienced one currently underemployed and working next to the clickbait author? There would be very little point in spending time and going in to debt to become a nurse if the best job a nurse can find is the one he already has working in a warehouse.
- kalleboo 11y agoI'm a pretty proficient programmer, but I would never have gotten there if I had to study after working 12.5 hour shifts all week - I'd still be working in the warehouse today. That's why I recognize I had privilege growing up in a country with paid-for higher education and parents who encouraged me to attend. I also support such social measures for others as I feel it would be economically inefficient if I was still working a menial job instead of what I do now just because I don't have enough desire and ambition to work that much on top of studies.
- jdavis703 11y agoA lot of people don't seem to realize that the term "privilege" is simply the opposite of under-privelavged and think the term means they were born with a silver spoon in their mouth.
- throw2048-AZ43 11y agoCool motte-and-bailey agrument, but no. Just to give 1 example: if, as you claim, "privilege" would universally mean simply the opposite of under-privileged, the "check your privilege" phrase would never exist.
- mahyarm 11y agoThe amount of 'free time privilege' required to become a developer is less than the amount of 'privilege' required to become almost any other well paying profession. With software, you need a cheap computer, access to the internet and time to teach yourself. That can cost about $300 and $10/month in many places. With almost anything else you need all of the above plus a college or other formal education. The barrier to getting any sort of college education, not to mention even getting admitted to one, is far higher. You usually need thousands per month and 20 hours/week of scheduled time to pay for the costs of college. There are also other minimum wage jobs you can apply for with better conditions, like coffee shops, restaurants, gas stations, retail stores and so on. And in developed countries, you have the option of saving up for your computer with your minimum wage job and then going on welfare.
- jhnpckr 11y agoAbility is a privilege.
- meow_mix 11y agoGonna second kalleboo here. I'd like to add that the un-empathetic attitude you've got there isn't doing our image as developers any favors.
- Nicholas_C 11y ago>> it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. >I absolutely would accept those employment conditions if I didn't have any other options and needed to make money to survive. But you do have options, so you would never accept the conditions. That's the point he was trying to make.
- OldSchoolJohnny 11y ago"It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability." Oh, you must be very young! :)
- throw2048-AZ43 11y agoNice ad hominem. Let me try it too: Oh, you must be very dumb.
- marknutter 11y ago34, and I grew up poor but in a moderately wealthy suburb. I had to pay most of my way through college, and when I couldn't find a job with my degree (Physics) I learned how to program and have been making a living off that ever since. I didn't get what I have today because of privilege but you would probably see it differently.
- ohyes 11y agoI'm sure you didn't get what you had solely because of privilege. You worked hard. But that entire discussion is irrelevant. I hate it when people quote "privilege" as a way to shut someone up. It has become such a dirty word. The point for me is recognizing that yes, I have been fortunate in my circumstances (solely by being born in a first world country in this century I was ahead of the majority of people born ever). Having free time to pursue your interests is a luxury. If I could extend that same privilege to others I would in a heartbeat because I think it would be both morally right and for the greater good. If I don't recognize my already good place in the world I am disrespecting the people who worked hard to put me in the advantaged position that I am in.
- pekk 11y agoYou don't just need desire and ambition to learn. You also have to convince interviewers that you are a rockstar that will be a "culture fit."
- pekk 11y agoYou don't just need desire and ambition to learn. You also have to convince interviewers that you are a rockstar.
- hawleyal 11y agoJust world fallacy. Tech is not a meritocracy, despite aspirations.
- s73v3r 11y agoFor a lot of those people, just having free time, let alone free time that you can use to learn a skill is a privilege.
- simonebrunozzi 11y agoIf you think that it's not privilege, at least partially, you are really deluded.
- ra1n85 11y ago>It's a good reminder of privilege. En vogue Orwellian group think for simple minds. Implying that some have undeserved fortune is reprehensible with this complete disregard for context.
- vernie 11y agoBlah blah Orwellian peabrains! Look, I'm doing it, too!
- dang 11y agoPlease don't post unsubstantive comments to HN.
- geofft 11y agoWhy stop at implying that some have undeserved fortune? Obviously plenty of people do. A truly meritocratic society would not let the personal circumstances of your biological parents affect (either positively or negatively) your life status, whether by moving to a more expensive part of town with better grade schools, encouraging you to stay in school and helping you with your homework, paying for college, immigrating to a more prosperous country, having money you can borrow when starting your career, etc.
- ra1n85 11y agoWho will determine where merit is deserved and undeserved? You? The Flying Spaghetti Monster?
- geofft 11y agoI was assuming that "merit" inherited from parents is undeserved, but yeah, perhaps that's unjustified. Do you have an argument that it is deserved?
- ra1n85 11y agoUnless someone has broken the law in their process of accumulating resources, they are legally in possession of such resources.
- threatofrain 11y agoI don't think business people care enough about privilege to pay the salaries of software engineers. Software engineers are paid on leverage, their leverage on company profits. The lens of deservance is not productive.
- geofft 11y agoMy previous employer wasn't profitable for a day in its 10-year life, until it finally decided this past spring that further business wasn't worthwhile. A nontrivial part of the money coming in came from investment capital; the remainder came from enterprise sales. In neither case did the decision to give us money have a basis of a rigorous technical analysis of our engineering output, and especially for the VCs it was based on a perception that we were a good investment. What fuels that perception? Get some founders from famous schools. File some patents because patents look good, not because you particularly need to protect these inventions. Engage in thought leadership. Land a customer because you care about their name more than about how much they'll pay you. Convince some Gartner analyst who'll never use your product that you're innovative. Bring in a management team with connections. Design products for what journalists want more than what end users want. Hire some kids from famous schools. (I should note that I believe my previous employer was nonetheless steadily solving actual problems, that they were paying me to solve actual problems, and that they were well-managed. But in order to keep doing that they had to make it to profitability, and the path there involved the above pressures.) Business people don't care about privilege directly, but if these pressures are around -- which they are in practice -- privilege ends up being correlated with having positive leverage on profits.
- pkaye 11y agoIt is less of privilege and more that the developer market is broad and growing so a decent developer has an opportunity to be choosy. On the contrary, a Amazon warehouse worker probably has few alternatives so they tolerate the situation.
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- geofft 11y agoYou absolutely deserve everything you get. Other people have also worked their asses equally off, and did not get where you are. They also deserved what they worked for and did not get. It is pretty confusing that people use the same word "privilege" to refer to two different but related things, the ability to get away with things you shouldn't be able to (e.g., that "affluenza" kid in the news) and the ability to avoid harm that you don't deserve. The former is stuff nobody should have, and some unjustly do. But don't confuse it with the latter; stuff that everyone should have, and some unjustly don't. People having high-salaried jobs without qualification is the first category. People having living wages and decent, safe working conditions is the second. We're not talking about whether people get to buy the latest Wu-Tang album, or even whether they can get a dev job in AWS. We're talking about working conditions at the Amazon warehouses.
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- throw2048-AZ43 11y agoYou keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means. But by all means, please use it as often as you can. We need this ungrounded in reality construct to get even more vague before it will become apparent how bogus it is